An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[McClef]

Certain Norse traditions (and not just in Shetland) do not prevent Celtic ones being there also. Up Helly Aa is once a year but I expect that you might see the occasional kilt in the streets of Lerwick at most other times of year.

Or Stornoway or Kirkwall etc etc.

[Jock Scot]

Certain Norse traditions (and not just in Shetland) do not prevent Celtic ones being there also. Up Helly Aa is once a year but I expect that you might see the occasional kilt in the streets of Lerwick at most other times of year.

Or Stornoway or Kirkwall etc etc.

Actually you don't see many kilts up there, its probably too windy.

To use the North American Indian as an example to illustrate a point. I expect that you may see North American Indians wandering around in their traditional attire from time to time which is based far more solid foundations in their own country and they are surrounded by "modern America". You cannot in any way compare that to some fairly recently invented Viking junket in the Northern Isles of Scotland , particularly as it is indeed surrounded by Celtic traditions too.

[MacSpadger]

While I am not completely stunned, I did find it a little shocking that Jock would so readily accept his own grandchildren abandoning a part of their cultural identity, but who am I to judge that? Old World/New World differences I suppose. It's no skin off my nose.

I was born in Aberdeen and went to college in Inverness. I went through a period of wearing a kilt as everyday wear in my late teens/early 20's. Nowadays I usually wear the kilt when it's connected with bagpiping, (which can be several times a week for me).

I have two children who were born in England as I worked there for 20 years. Despite having Scottish names, being able to speak fluent Doric and some conversational Gaelic and spending about 6 to 8 weeks of the year in Scotland as they grew up, neither of them would ever wear a kilt. I don't see them "abandoning a part of their cultural identity" but simply growing up in a rapidly changing world. Gaelic has been laid aside for French, Spanish and German and they have travelled to places in Europe that I have never seen.
I don't feel down about this in any way.

Likewise, if a non-Scot wants to wear a kilt, for whatever reasons, I really don't give a hoot. Some of the modern non-traditional designs look very smart indeed.
But I can't see how I might feel honoured by it

I don't understand the fascination with Jacobitism and heraldry, (especially after America fought very hard to escape from such things), but, whatever floats your boat.

When I was younger, in Scotland if we saw a group of people in kilts, we would assume them to be Americans (or perhaps Canadians). Where I grew up a kilt was just too expensive for most people. Scotland is not a wealthy country. This has changed with cheaper kilts that folk wear to the fitba' and the rugby. We do still see US and Canadian tourists dressed up to the nines in expensive brand new kilts, etc. Not just in the towns but out at Culloden or Urquhart Castle, I don't really mind it, why would I? I do see it as people trying to re-connect with their ancestors' culture. I think researching your family tree is a better route, as I don't think you can buy into a culture, but who knows where buying a kilt might lead someone?

Pertaining to the other thread I have only had one really negative "I'm more Scottish than you", experience, and it was a gentleman from Houston, Texas:
He: "So, you say you are Scottish, how many dirks do you have?"
Me: "I don't have a dirk, let alone any dirks"
He: "Say What! I have over 20, I have been buying them for years, all antiques. And you don't have one, that's terrible! I am WAY more Scottish than you, WAY more, you should be ashamed of yourself".

I did not take this gentleman to be representative of the USA, but as a representative of global arseholes.

[pascs]

I was brought up in Aberdeen before moving out to a wee village not to far north of Aberdeen and often wore the kilt for weddings, new year etc. About 10 years back I moved out with my family to the Middle East (for employment) and since then I've probably worn my kilt more times than when I lived in Aberdeen. There are hundreds of Scots in the same situation as myself and when there is a Burns night, St Andrews night, New Year etc there are many Scots wearing their kilts.

This just feels right for me as I cant imagine going to a Burns night etc and not wearing my kilt.

My kids were born in Aberdeen and I would certainly expect them to wear the kilt for such special occasions and Scottish events as they have done in the past to weddings. Of course if they dont feel comfortable to do so then thats up to them to decide.

[Danwell]

So some of this "food for thought" is hard to digest for some, but as far as I am concerned if just one person outwith Scotland actually thinks that there is another point of view, even if they are not actually going to change anything then I feel that I have achieved a wee something. In fact to the credit of many members on this website they appear to have thought quite hard about what I am saying. I can ask no more.

My issue with the first part of this paragraph is that a number of the questions in both the original and the subsequent survey are loaded and asked from a point of view which skews the results.

As for the rest of your posts - that any one person can, at any point, presume to direct others (whether explicitly, or as in your case, largely implicitly) on the way in which they honour their ancestors (or choose to wear a certain garment) is absolutely ridiculous. I've been lurking around these forums for a few years now, and have seen post after post after post of yours made up of disparaging remarks about those who were born outside of Scotland who choose to wear a kilt, modern, traditional or otherwise. Snide comments are included into huge paragraphs of text justifying your point of view and pretending that you're not insulted when you see kilts worn outside the Highlands. The fact that you've made these two threads alone shows that you're not just happy for everyone to accept that different points of view exist; you're doing your best to show all of us that the Scots don't think we have a right to wear a kilt. From the "It's just not done" comments to the "The way we Scots do it" posts.....they're all pushing the same agenda.

Maybe a degree of acceptance from your side of the pond is called for as well. After all, this is an international kilt forum, and wouldn't exist but for the interest of those outside Scotland. To most a kilt is just another piece of clothing, and should be worn by as many people want to in any way they see fit, regardless of the location or ancestry. At least, that's my point of view.

[Jock Scot]

Actually I do understand that "ex Pats" have a need to keep the thread of home going and of course the various Scots events give a perfect opportunity with a link home. Yes I understand that need well. In fact , my father a RN officer, used to tell of some pretty wild parties at these events abroad!

That is one thing, but for Americans, Canadians, other non Scots such tenuous connections to Scotland well frankly I don't understand it. Now if an Australian, for example, said to me "yes Jock, I am an Australian through and through, I might even have some Scots blood in me somewhere, but can I borrow your kilt attire for a Scots themed bash where the guests are required to dress as Scots for the night" well yes, absolutely, I can understand that completely and respect that wholeheartedly.

The rest of this "honour", "flattered" bit from non Scots, with the greatest of respect, I really don't understand. Or as someone recently said here on this website in a very astute post, "I just don't get it".

[Brett]

I was born in Aberdeen and went to college in Inverness. I went through a period of wearing a kilt as everyday wear in my late teens/early 20's. Nowadays I usually wear the kilt when it's connected with bagpiping, (which can be several times a week for me).

I have two children who were born in England as I worked there for 20 years. Despite having Scottish names, being able to speak fluent Doric and some conversational Gaelic and spending about 6 to 8 weeks of the year in Scotland as they grew up, neither of them would ever wear a kilt. I don't see them "abandoning a part of their cultural identity" but simply growing up in a rapidly changing world. Gaelic has been laid aside for French, Spanish and German and they have travelled to places in Europe that I have never seen.
I don't feel down about this in any way.

Likewise, if a non-Scot wants to wear a kilt, for whatever reasons, I really don't give a hoot. Some of the modern non-traditional designs look very smart indeed.
But I can't see how I might feel honoured by it

I don't understand the fascination with Jacobitism and heraldry, (especially after America fought very hard to escape from such things), but, whatever floats your boat.

When I was younger, in Scotland if we saw a group of people in kilts, we would assume them to be Americans (or perhaps Canadians). Where I grew up a kilt was just too expensive for most people. Scotland is not a wealthy country. This has changed with cheaper kilts that folk wear to the fitba' and the rugby. We do still see US and Canadian tourists dressed up to the nines in expensive brand new kilts, etc. Not just in the towns but out at Culloden or Urquhart Castle, I don't really mind it, why would I? I do see it as people trying to re-connect with their ancestors' culture. I think researching your family tree is a better route, as I don't think you can buy into a culture, but who knows where buying a kilt might lead someone?

Pertaining to the other thread I have only had one really negative "I'm more Scottish than you", experience, and it was a gentleman from Houston, Texas:
He: "So, you say you are Scottish, how many dirks do you have?"
Me: "I don't have a dirk, let alone any dirks"
He: "Say What! I have over 20, I have been buying them for years, all antiques. And you don't have one, that's terrible! I am WAY more Scottish than you, WAY more, you should be ashamed of yourself".

I did not take this gentleman to be representative of the USA, but as a representative of global arseholes.

This seems to be a really balanced view and the most common one I've expereienced from Scottish born friends. There's certainly no reason a Scot should feel "honoured" by a non-Scot wearing the kilt and viewing kilt clad tourists, clamouring over historical places with a curious laugh seems more than fair. I would imagine a few Scots have had a negative experience here and there with an American or Canadian tourist who feels they understand Scottish history better than most Scots and perhaps in their need-to-connect-to-Scotland-obsessed-mind they do, which would certainly be annoying.

[Jock Scot]

Danwell

On this thread I was asked an opinion directly and I have given it. I have even tried at length to explain, rather unsuccessfully, why I think as I do and I think that I have been at pains to recognise that others do not see my point of view.

As to my other posts I have never ever said that my opinion is the only one, it is at least a two way thing and people are quite at liberty to disagree with me and frankly they often do! I honestly think none the less of them, that is life. Forums like this are for all to discuss points of view and as long as the things being discussed are within the rules and the words used are respectfull then we all might be a tad wiser at the end than when we started, even if we do not end up agreeing.

[Danwell]

Danwell

On this thread I was asked an opinion directly and I have given it. I have even tried at length to explain, rather unsuccessfully, why I think as I do and I think that I have been at pains to recognise that others do not see my point of view.

As to my other posts I have never ever said that my opinion is the only one, it is at least a two way thing and people are quite at liberty to disagree with me and frankly they often do! I honestly think none the less of them, that is life. Forums like this are for all to discuss points of view and as long as the things being discussed are within the rules and the words used are respectfull then we all might be a tad wiser than when we started, even if we do not end up agreeing.

No, you haven't said that your opinion is the only one, but by God you make sure everyone knows what yours is!

My only beef is that there have been a hundred posts in the past 12 mths in which you've given your opinion (and yes, I realise that you didn't start this one, nor any of the others aside from the poorly conducted F4T tests) and I don't think there is a person on this forum who's been here for three months that couldn't sum up your POV. Why not, now that you've absolutely removed all doubt from people's minds, let the matter rest? You keep writing that "We have an opinion on what you wear/how you wear it/the colour of your hose/height of your kilt/type of sporran/tartan/pleating but we're too gentlemanly/discrete/polite/well brought up/whatever to say it to your face" - I haven't seen much of the "discrete" lately.

[Jock Scot]

No, you haven't said that your opinion is the only one, but by God you make sure everyone knows what yours is!

My only beef is that there have been a hundred posts in the past 12 mths in which you've given your opinion (and yes, I realise that you didn't start this one, nor any of the others aside from the poorly conducted F4T tests) and I don't think there is a person on this forum who's been here for three months that couldn't sum up your POV. Why not, now that you've absolutely removed all doubt from people's minds, let the matter rest? You keep writing that "We have an opinion on what you wear/how you wear it/the colour of your hose/height of your kilt/type of sporran/tartan/pleating but we're too gentlemanly/discrete/polite/well brought up/whatever to say it to your face" - I haven't seen much of the "discrete" lately.

You have your opinion and I respect it, but I can't think that you would expect me to agree with you.