An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[O'Searcaigh]

Oh come on chaps, leave it out. I have obviously and unintentionally got under the fellow's skin and for that I am genuinely sorry. I do feel that his comments were a tad unfair, but hey ho, such is life. Now let us get back on topic, shall we.

In reference to ??? ' just trying to follow the thread.

[ForresterModern]

*** to what Sir William and Tobus have both said, far more sincerely and elegantly than my poor quill (or keyboard) could lay down here.

jeff

[RockyR]

Actually I do understand that "ex Pats" have a need to keep the thread of home going and of course the various Scots events give a perfect opportunity with a link home. Yes I understand that need well. In fact , my father a RN officer, used to tell of some pretty wild parties at these events abroad!

That is one thing, but for Americans, Canadians, other non Scots such tenuous connections to Scotland well frankly I don't understand it. Now if an Australian, for example, said to me "yes Jock, I am an Australian through and through, I might even have some Scots blood in me somewhere, but can I borrow your kilt attire for a Scots themed bash where the guests are required to dress as Scots for the night" well yes, absolutely, I can understand that completely and respect that wholeheartedly.

Take the ex pat "feelings of fondness" thing and apply it to their children. If an Ex Pat wears their kilt in a foreign land (which you said you understand), it makes sense that this longing for their native land would influence the way they bring up their children. It makes sense that their children will hear them romanticize their homeland in stories and in wearing the kilt. That will become ingrained in their children the same way American Culture does... because they're raised with these notions of romanticism.

If your father (or grandfather) was first generation and spoke with a Scottish Accent, wore a kilt, talked about Scotland and his childhood and how wonderful the country is, it would only make sense that you would want to experience that on some level. You'd be an American, brought up in American culture and wearing jeans and tshirts, but have this understandable desire to experience what your grandfather / father told you about / experienced. Since making a journey thousands of miles and taking an international vacation is beyond what most people can afford these days, they have to experience it another way... a less expensive way. Highland games and wearing kilts is an affordable way to feel 'connected' to something greater than yourself. Something that your grandfather only told you about and showed you pictures of.

Over generations, that sentiment and romanticism for your homeland may die down, but that's where it comes from... stories of our fathers and grandfathers about how wonderful [insert home country here] is.

Does that explanation help you to understand it any better?

[creagdhubh]

+2 Exactly correct and very well said.

Agreed.

[PatG]

I have been thinking about why I wear the kilt especially in light of Jock Scots opinion. My full answer is long, involved and probably too much information for this forum. So I will try to keep it short. I do not wear the kilt to honour the current residents of Scotland nor do I seek their blessing or permission to do so. I know that their history and tradition makes them experts on the kilt and how to wear it and I respect that knowledge as I would that of an expert in any field.

I am a first generation Canadian of British and Scots descent with no strong ties to either the old country or to the established diaspora Scots community. Further, with the rise of official multiculturalism in Canada, the British Empire culture I was brought up in at home is widely dismissed as the root of all national if not global problems. As such, it is up to me to create an identity for myself. This I choose to do through remembering and honouring My name, My family, My ancestors and My culture - and nobody else's - in part through wearing the kilt.

Jock Scot and others might not agree and I understand and respect their position. Though I make no claim to be of anything other than of proud peasant stock, I try to act as a gentleman would and determine what would make my host and the other guests comfortable. Thus in the unlikely event I am graced with a black tie invitation from Jock, I would do my research and hit the rental shops for tie, shirt, tails and trousers. Should I ever be asked 'round for an informal dram, I might well show up in my Utilikilt and sweater but would be careful to keep the single malt between me and the muzzle at all times.

Come Tartan Day on April 6th - I am wearing my kilt to the office.

[creagdhubh]

Take the ex pat "feelings of fondness" thing and apply it to their children. If you're an Ex Pat and wear your kilt in a foreign land (which you said you understand), it makes sense that this longing for your native land would influence the way you bring up your children. It makes sense that they will hear you romanticize your homeland in stories and in wearing the kilt. That will become ingrained in your children the same way American Culture does... because they're brought up with it.

Over generations, that sentiment and romanticism for your homeland may die down, but that's where it comes from... stories of our fathers and grandfathers about how wonderful [insert home country here] is.

Does that explanation help you to understand it any better?

Precisely, Rocky.

[Jock Scot]

Take the ex pat "feelings of fondness" thing and apply it to their children. If you're an Ex Pat and wear your kilt in a foreign land (which you said you understand), it makes sense that this longing for your native land would influence the way you bring up your children. It makes sense that they will hear you romanticize your homeland in stories and in wearing the kilt. That will become ingrained in your children the same way American Culture does... because they're brought up with it.

If your father (or grandfather) was first generation and spoke with a Scottish Accent, wore a kilt, talked about Scotland and his childhood and how wonderful the country is, it would only make sense that you would want to experience that on some level. You'd be an American, brought up in American culture and wearing jeans and tshirts, but have this understandable desire to experience what your grandfather / father told you about / experienced. Since making a journey thousands of miles and taking an international vacation is beyond what most people can afford these days, they have to experience it another way... a less expensive way. Highland games and wearing kilts is an affordable way to feel 'connected' to something greater than yourself. Something that your grandfather only told you about and showed you pictures of.

Over generations, that sentiment and romanticism for your homeland may die down, but that's where it comes from... stories of our fathers and grandfathers about how wonderful [insert home country here] is.

Does that explanation help you to understand it any better?

Indeed I can understand an interest in the past and I do well understand that some have a need to visit the home of their roots, so I wonder why are you all not going to Normandy, Norway are wherever too? Perhaps you do? Why stop at Scotland?It all seems a tad "convenient" to me, as your roots will often go further back than Scotland. As I have already said, I understand the "ex Pats" point of view, but the rest? Well try as I might, I don't understand it. In some ways, I wish I did!

[Father Bill]

Take the ex pat "feelings of fondness" thing and apply it to their children. If you're an Ex Pat and wear your kilt in a foreign land (which you said you understand), it makes sense that this longing for your native land would influence the way you bring up your children. It makes sense that they will hear you romanticize your homeland in stories and in wearing the kilt. That will become ingrained in your children the same way American Culture does... because they're brought up with it.

Over generations, that sentiment and romanticism for your homeland may die down, but that's where it comes from... stories of our fathers and grandfathers about how wonderful [insert home country here] is.

Does that explanation help you to understand it any better?

Aye, Rocky - you've described at least one situation well here.

Add to it the North American culture mentioned earlier, which is to encourage people to take pride in their roots (such that the pride truly is a part of normal North American culture as much as any longing) and finally add in a sense of "lostness" that many folks in the more mobile and multi-cultural parts of the world have, based on having such mixed and composite roots that it's sometimes difficult to find any rootedness at all. Rootedness for many people gives a sense of safety and self-worth from knowing who and what you are. Feeling unsafe in that odd multi-cultural way, of course many folks will reach out and grasp for their roots, even sometimes for imagined or tenuous ones.

I'm not trying to justify that behaviour or longing for rootedness because it is honest in itself. Feelings are real, even if they are not logical and I don't think for a moment that they need justification, but rather, like any good priest who sees people struggling with ideas and situations, I feel a need to explain to those in the Old Countries who are finding it difficult to understand, just why it happens here. Of course that assumes that they want to understand, and some, I think and fear, truly may not want to understand because it would cause them to have to use a different gestalt than they are accustomed to use to measure the world.

Now an example of when it can become hurtful is that I feel as if I should explain why I used the word "aye" to start my post. I've used the word on and off for much of my life having heard it at home from my Mum, so it's an honest part of my vocabulary and not an affectation. On this forum however, it hurts to think that I have to explain something that is as natural to me as breathing just in case somebody might thing I was "playing at being a Scot," a phrase which, as has been pointed out elsewhere, in North American ears is hurtful and demeaning.

This is the sort of thing of which we need to take great care here. Again, like any good priest, I worry about people's hurts, and care for them much as I feel my own hurts.

Now... does that help anyone's understanding or have I just wasted a few megabytes?

Bill+

[SlackerDrummer]

There was no hidden agenda in my question (post#1); it was not a trick question, and I wasn't looking to trap anyone or for some kind of "gotcha" moment. I certainly did not intend for this thread to be about clashing viewpoints of kilt-wearing. (Thank goodness for Jock Scot's mettle!)

My question was merely aimed to refine what I perceived as a shortsightedness in the recent surveys. And why wouldn't there be shortsightedness? After all, there is an art and science to surveys and people make a LOT of money coming up with them and analyzing them. Jock Scot's wife is not, to my knowledge, a pollster.

As a political professional, I know that you can skew the results of a poll by the way you phrase a question -intentionally or not - and I wondered whether how a few of the questions were presented led to some false answers. Specifically questions 7 and 8 and questions 9 and 10 in F4T and F4T2 respectively, which are

Where would you normally wear the civilian kilt? (tick 1)
Solely in the Highlands:
Solely in Scotland:
In the UK:

Would you ever wear the civilian kilt outwith the UK? (tick 1)
Yes, in exceptional circumstances:
Never:

These questions were asked directly of the participants about their behavior. I do not know, but I believe that most of the survey participants were locals. Therefore the results give the view of not just Scots, but residents of the Highlands.

I asked the question I did because I did not feel that these survey questions sufficiently addressed the wearing of kilts outside Scotland. They were phrased and answered about the particular behavior of Highland residents, though much has since been read into the meaning of the answers. Why would these men wear their kilts abroad? Seriously. If most of the time they wear their kilts are for culturally appropriate events like weddings, nights out on the town in the Highlands, etc. When I have been abroad, for instance, I did not take a suit with me. I was not planning on attending any events for which I normally wear a suit and I think that is the real reason for the answers to the questions above, too.

What was not addressed (or at least I didn't see evidence of it) was the idea of whether or not any of these men would continue to wear their kilts were they to find themselves no longer residents of the Highlands. I wondered perhaps if they just hadn't thought much about it. Or maybe they are unaware of the opportunities they might have in other parts of the world to don their Highland attire and revisit the spirit of their homeland with other ex-pats and those of Scottish heritage.

Also, I think there is a huge misunderstanding about the difference between cultural identity v. national identity. I am, as many Americans on this forum, a mutt. But I have a lot of Scottish ancestry. It is the primary commonality between my ancestry and my wife's. We celebrate our Scottish ancestry on occasion and when doing so I wear a kilt. But don't get me wrong, if the United States and Scotland were ever to meet in the World Cup, I'd be rooting for the good old US of A.

[Peter Crowe]

Take the ex pat "feelings of fondness" thing and apply it to their children. If an Ex Pat wears their kilt in a foreign land (which you said you understand), it makes sense that this longing for their native land would influence the way they bring up their children. It makes sense that their children will hear them romanticize their homeland in stories and in wearing the kilt. That will become ingrained in their children the same way American Culture does... because they're raised with these notions of romanticism.

If your father (or grandfather) was first generation and spoke with a Scottish Accent, wore a kilt, talked about Scotland and his childhood and how wonderful the country is, it would only make sense that you would want to experience that on some level. You'd be an American, brought up in American culture and wearing jeans and tshirts, but have this understandable desire to experience what your grandfather / father told you about / experienced. Since making a journey thousands of miles and taking an international vacation is beyond what most people can afford these days, they have to experience it another way... a less expensive way. Highland games and wearing kilts is an affordable way to feel 'connected' to something greater than yourself. Something that your grandfather only told you about and showed you pictures of.

Over generations, that sentiment and romanticism for your homeland may die down, but that's where it comes from... stories of our fathers and grandfathers about how wonderful [insert home country here] is.

Does that explanation help you to understand it any better?

To pick up on Rocky's theme, as a Scots expatriate who has made my life in another country, I can offer some personal experiences.

I lived in Scotland until I was 33 years of age with no desire, expectation or ambition to live anywhere else. I was committed to remaining there, and was reading a degree in Scottish History, thinking that with devolution and renewed interest in Scotland I would remain and make my career and life there. Ironically I met my American wife (of mostly Scottish with some English and Irish heritage) as a fellow student in the Department of Scottish History (as it then was) at Glasgow University, and everything changed because I met the woman who was going to be my soul-mate.

What swayed me besides my love for my wife was a visceral feeling that if I didn't 'go for it' I would spend the rest of my life regretting not having tried living with the woman I love in her country. I didn't like the vision I had of myself as a lonely old man, saying "If only.....". My wife for perfectly understandable family reasons did have a stronger need for returning to the States than I had for remaining in Scotland, as my mother had passed on and my widower father had remarried.

Fast forward a few years (2012) and we are married, and living a pleasant life in Massachusetts, and we start a family, and have a wee boy. (I emigrated to the US at age 37 when I got married and became a father and a US citizen at 41)

I didn't (despite all the bureaucratic hoops to get a green card, and then become a US citizen) cease to be the Scot I always was, or to feel a deep connection with the land, and people of my birth.

Human Beings aren't automatons whereby you flick a switch or change your locus and you take on a completely new identity and cast off the old one. For example, when my dad who lives in Caithness said to me after talking to my son on the phone, "Oh Alexander is getting an awfy strong New England accent", and I replied "I hadn't noticed, to me he sounds just like our Alexander." The point is it is a fact that he is an American, but (for me), it is more significant that he is my son. As my son he is going to imbibe much from me (and from others) so that much of my Scottish identity becomes a part of who he is.