An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[Jock Scot]

SlackerDrummer.

You have absolutely nothing to apologise for my dear chap.

You asked a fair question and what has ensued is a very informative discussion. My honest impression is that the reaction from outwith these shores has grown ever louder and more defensive as the discussion has progressed. I think it was Shakespeare who had a line along the lines of "methinks thou protest too much". Others will no doubt think otherwise!

Indeed, neither the F4T1 and 2 were put together by experts and the way the questions were put together could well be criticised by those that know about these things. I did try to utilise the questions that were asked the first time around for the sake of continuity and I did ask for and get input for extra questions from the members. It seems to have gone unnoticed that F4T2 was a result of a direct request from more than a few members and --------------

[Brett]

To Rocky and Peter.............so very well said.


Understanding anothers perspective requires a person to step out of their own frame of reference and attempt to step into someone elses. That's a very difficult thing for many to do and somewhat contrary to human nature I believe. In that light, it's understandable to me that a number of native Scots don't understand the 'looking back' to our heritage for those of scottish ancestory.

[be da veva]

Let's not forget that the 1st F4T was for fun and the second one was also for fun but with more people and with an age difference to top it all. It was for fun .... We can debate it, but let's not get too rilled up.... I wouldn't want to play Monopoly with a few here....

[RockyR]

Indeed I can understand an interest in the past and I do well understand that some have a need to visit the home of their roots and as I have already said, I understand the "ex Pats" point of view, but the rest? Well try as I might, I don't understand it. In some ways, I wish I did!

Let's flip it on it's head.

Let's say that your father was Helmut Keller, a proud German who moved to the Highlands to follow his lucrative heather collecting business. He settled in a town near Inverness and had a bonny son, Jock Scot Keller. When growing up, he oft times told you stories about the wonderful beer halls, the beautiful women (carrying 4 liter mugs of beer in each hand), the wonderful bratwurst, the tasty gingerbread and black forest chocolate, the 'racetrack like' autobahn, etc. He would occasionally break out his lederhosen on summer days for a stroll in the hills and glens where you and he and your mum had picnics. For Christmas you had a German Feather tree and you put out your shoes and got gifts in them for the days before Xmas (a German tradition).

Would you not feel some desire to see / connect with Germany and 'things German' based on the fond memories of your own childhood growing up with German traditions in Scotland?

[Jock Scot]

Let's flip it on it's head.

Let's say that your father was Helmut Keller, a proud German who moved to the Highlands to follow his lucrative heather collecting business. He settled in a town near Inverness and had a bonny son, Jock Scot Keller. When growing up, he oft times told you stories about the wonderful beer halls, the beautiful women (carrying 4 liter mugs of beer in each hand), the wonderful bratwurst, the tasty gingerbread and black forest chocolate, the 'racetrack like' autobahn, etc. He would occasionally break out his lederhosen on summer days for a stroll in the hills and glens where you and he and your mum had picnics. For Christmas you had a German Feather tree and you put out your shoes and got gifts in them for the days before Xmas (a German tradition).

Would you not feel some desire to see / connect with Germany and 'things German' based on the fond memories of your own childhood growing up with German traditions in Scotland?

I am not dodging the question and I can see that you are really trying to get your point across. But I cannot answer a hypothetical question where emotions, desires , historical ties do not exist.

What I can say is, that it all depends how happy JSK is in his surroundings and I think, I would just want to get on with life.

Now, I can see that some from a recent influx from wherever might have these influences tugging, but I am completely mystified how 3-4-5-6-7-more generations away from their roots feel this "pull".

[RockyR]

You asked a fair question and what has ensued is a very informative discussion. My honest impression is that the reaction from outwith these shores has grown ever louder and more defensive as the discussion has progressed. I think it was Shakespeare who had a line along the lines of "methinks thou protest too much". Others will no doubt think otherwise!

In fairness, I don't feel that the majority are protesting too much, just trying to explain our 'situation'. When we are being told that one doesn't understand even after several attempts from different individuals, there may be a hint of frustration coming through. It's not that we're trying to justify our feelings to you or anyone... simply trying to explain in an effective manner. However to do that, we must ask others to put themselves in our shoes, which is not always easy to do.

I'll also add my voice to those who respect your opinion and posts, Jock. We may not agree on everything, but you are an asset to this forum for your honest and forthright manner.

[O'Searcaigh]

SlackerDrummer.

I think it was Shakespeare who had a line along the lines of "methinks thou protest too much".

Jock -- funny you should refer to this as I was wondering the same thing about your repeated: "I just don't get it." In the interests of honesty, clarity and understanding I would like to know just what it is you mean by "don't get it?" Is it that you don't understand or is it that you don't accept, or don't like it, or wouldn't do it yourself? There have been many many replies here trying to explain, (in response to your saying "I don't get it") to aid in your better understanding of why a particular respondent does what they do about wearing the kilt. Some do it for a sense of cultural heritage; some do it just for fun (indeed, play) with a whole range of "reasons" in between. For me there is no single answer but rather many depending on "what it is I'm about" at the time, as I suspect is true for the majority of kilt wearers, outwith or not. I enjoy as a hobby making kilt related items (converting tweed jackets, making sporrans, bonnets); I also just find wearing a kilt more comfortable sometimes than wearing trousers. Actually the quote from Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act III, scence II) is: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" and is generally (mis)quoted in reference to something insisted upon repeatedly and so strongly that people suspect the opposite of what one is literally saying. So, For crying out loud, what is it about "it" that you don't "get?" Affectionately, Paul ("O'Searcaigh")
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[RockyR]

I am not dodging the question and I can see that you are really trying to get your point across. But I cannot answer a hypothetical question where emotions, desires , historical ties do not exist.

Respectfully, I'd submit that if you can't reverse the thinking and see a situation from another's point of view, it would stand to reason that others could not reverse their situation and understand how Scots may not want the kilt worn outwith Scotland. In that case, this whole exercise will have been for naught.

I'm not saying that you're not TRYING to see it from another point of view... I'm saying that if it you say it can't be done (which I accept as an honest response), then I could understand where the krux of the issues lies where others couldn't see your side.

[MT4Runner]

Now, I can see that some from a recent influx from wherever might have these influences tugging, but I am completely mystified how 3-4-5-6-7-more generations away from their roots feel this "pull".

Perhaps this is an oversimplification, but people from the "American melting pot" generally don't have a singular heritage.

We're proud of our American heritage, but we also want to be proud of our genetic heritage. Sometimes this requires going 3-7 generations back.

[Jock Scot]

Respectfully, I'd submit that if you can't reverse the thinking and see a situation from another's point of view, it would stand to reason that others could not reverse their situation and understand how Scots may not want the kilt worn outwith Scotland. In that case, this whole exercise will have been for naught.

I'm not saying that you're not TRYING to see it from another point of view... I'm saying that if it you say it can't be done (which I accept as an honest response), then I could understand where the krux of the issues lies where others couldn't see your side.

I am not saying it can't be done at all. On the contrary and funnily enough, what you have said above is precisely what I was thinking from those outwith these Islands!

It would be helpful allround if we all understood, not necessarily accept, each others point of view--------I think I have said that before in this thread----- but I fear that putting ourselves in each others shoes without the respective emotions to go with them is not likely to be easy. Well OK, it is very difficult!