An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[islandkilt]

Why stop at Scotland?

Because Scotland's just so damn cool...

course for that it could end up pretty crowded there...

so I could help relieve the crowding by going on.. but it wouldn't be very practical - a guy in a kilt (outwith I suppose) is seen as expressing his heritage and most certainly as having some daring in his fashion choice (Panache?)... a guy in furry boots and a horned helmet would probably generate the attention of first responders...

and of course there'd be some Norseman somewhere who'd feel it wasn't proper outwith.. (wouldn't stop me but I'd at least try to get the boots on the right feet and the helmet frontways for him..)

but why stop there? I could probably go on... but at some point I'd just end up naked and unshaven in the back yard, pounding rocks together...

course...

it is a warm sunny day...


and the yard does need tending to...



"Welcome, from Inverness-shire",

this posted directly beneath a picture of myself sounding the conch against a Hawiian sunset, barefoot, tank-topped, and kilted in a tartan I have no connection with...

that tells me enough about who the gentleman is,

Here's to you, sir,

Maybe I can arrange to stop by with the others, I'll be the Haole in the lava-lava with a Hawaiian leaf headdress. I'll bring you a lei, and teach you to play the conch at sunset, it really is a heart-stirring sound.. it's the Polynesian equivilant of bagpipes for me, but it doesn't go on for so long...

[Jock Scot]

Jock -- funny you should refer to this as I was wondering the same thing about your repeated: "I just don't get it." In the interests of honesty, clarity and understanding I would like to know just what it is you mean by "don't get it?" Is it that you don't understand or is it that you don't accept, or don't like it, or wouldn't do it yourself? There have been many many replies here trying to explain, (in response to your saying "I don't get it") to aid in your better understanding of why a particular respondent does what they do about wearing the kilt. Some do it for a sense of cultural heritage; some do it just for fun (indeed, play) with a whole range of "reasons" in between. For me there is no single answer but rather many depending on "what it is I'm about" at the time, as I suspect is true for the majority of kilt wearers, outwith or not. I enjoy as a hobby making kilt related items (converting tweed jackets, making sporrans, bonnets); I also just find wearing a kilt more comfortable sometimes than wearing trousers. Actually the quote from Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act III, scence II) is: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" and is generally (mis)quoted in reference to something insisted upon repeatedly and so strongly that people suspect the opposite of what one is literally saying. So, For crying out loud, what is it about "it" that you don't "get?" Affectionately, Paul ("O'Searcaigh")
__________________

Ok. I don't understand why you non Scots want to play at being Scots. Why can't you just be Russians , for example, or Americans, or Canadians. Now I have roots in Europe of one sort or another like many a Scot( or an American) no doubt, but we don't play at being Normans, Poles, Germans, whatevers so why do you chaps need to play at being Scots?

[auld argonian]

A parallel situation sort of exists with the concept of being a "Chicagoan". I grew up in a working class neighborhood on the South Side...an area that does have, shall we say, some very interesting speech patterns associated with it. These were the people who are genuinely the sort who are caricatured in the world "outwith Chicago"; if you've ever seen that Saturday Night Live sketch where the guys in jerseys sit around eating sausage and talking about "da Bears", these are the genuine items. (Note to UK folks...you can probably see the "da Bears" stuff on youtube...for what it's worth). Just by circumstances, I never really belonged to this culture...I understand it and respect it and these are members of my family and are my friends...but I was always outside of it. Mind you, wake me up at four in the morning and I speak fluent "Sout' Side".

So I have to laugh (quietly...and sometimes not so quietly) when I run into people who were born in the suburbs and who move into the city in their twenties so they can live the "exciting urban lifestyle" (which basically means that they have several bars within walking distance of their apartment so they don't need that car that they're paying thousands of dollars a year to garage to go out and party). All of a sudden, these start acting like the caricature of the cocky native Chicagoan complete with the dialect. Their parents abandoned the city so they wouldn't have to deal with all the "ethnics" and in an effort to get these kids into schools that, theoretically, had a higher set of academic standards and here are their kids acting like they grew up at "tirty-tird an' da tracks" and went to public school all their lives (note to UK'ers...public/private schools in the USA...reverse the definitions used in the UK.) So we get these instant tough guys who even have the temerity to start playing 16 inch softball even though they never saw a Clincher (the pre-eminent brand of 16 inch softball) in their lives. Trouble is, they're doing the cartoon image of a Chicagoan because that's what they think it's supposed to be. They may start out just being funny about it but they get goddam offensive with it after a while. I should also point out that when they get married and have their own children, they run back to the security and good schools of the suburbs that they grew up in...they can't be expected to raise a family in this urban cesspool. They will, however, always brag about how they're "from Chicago" and how that supposedly gives them the tough edge and urban savvy that should make you think twice before you cross them or try to outwit them in business...to borrow a phrase from our Scots brethren, "aye, right."

Sort of a parallel? Are these the native Chicagoan's "diaspora"?

Probably the guys from Philadelphia or New York or wherever are saying, "know the type" right now. Can it get under your skin? Yup. Do ya' try to just accept it, roll your eyes and move on? Hopefully. Just sayin' that everybody should have some empathy with a native anybody who sees someone who's "not from around here" co-opt things that are cultural identity items.

When I said somewhere back there in one or another of these interwoven threads that I would leave the kilt behind if I visited Scotland, it wasn't meant to be a sarcastic remark. I would hate to go all that way and maybe meet some of these forum members that I've come to know on Xmarks and have some thing be the elephant in the room while I was trying to enjoy the land and culture.

...I will, however, bring along a supply of Sox caps to share with the Xmarksers that I meet...that's one South Side thing that we like to spread around.

Best

AA

[Sir William]

Indeed I can understand an interest in the past and I do well understand that some have a need to visit the home of their roots, so I wonder why are you all not going to Normandy, Norway are wherever too? Perhaps you do? Why stop at Scotland?It all seems a tad "convenient" to me, as your roots will often go further back than Scotland. As I have already said, I understand the "ex Pats" point of view, but the rest? Well try as I might, I don't understand it. In some ways, I wish I did!

Actually, they do go other places than Scotland. Its just this forum draws people who interested in kilts, and therefore by extension Scotland, so it appears that only those of Scots' heritage are different than others ethnicities in the US.

I suspect more Americans visit Ireland each year than the total number of tourists who visit Scotland. There is a tremendous interest in Ireland in the US and understandably so. I also suspect that most Irish have much the same attitude toward American fascination with their country.

I know many people who have visited, or would like to visit, the "Old Country" be it Ireland, England, Wales, Germany, Greece, Croatia, Slovakia, Poland, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Russia, France, Italy, India, or Bolivia - and these are but the tip of the iceberg. Often they know little more than that is where part of their family came from but they still want to go and see it.

The problem of course is working one's way back through the family history to learn where the family came before Scotland. I've one ancestor who came over in the 1720s but all I have to go on is "Scotland." I'd be overjoyed to find out his ancestors came from Norway or Sweden. Its a bit hard to reach further back than that short of pure speculation and imagination.

Interestingly enough, I don't find many who want to visit Boston or Dallas or Norfolk, even though their family may have lived in these places in the past. They want to see where their family "came from".

[O'Searcaigh]

Ok. I don't understand why you non Scots want to play at being Scots. Why can't you just be Russians , for example, or Americans, or Canadians. Now I have roots in Europe of one sort or another like many a Scot( or an American) no doubt, but we don't play at being Normans, Poles, Germans, whatevers so why do you chaps need to play at being Scots?

Okay, fair enough, you don't play at being a Norman, Pole, German etc. but in response please see Sir William's post above -- and because it's just plain fun! BTW: plenty of people here do "play at" (in your terms) being Germans, Russians, Mexicans, Poles, cowboys, sailors, Confederates (especially "here" in the South), doctors, lawyers, (some even with the credentials to back it up) and indian chiefs ... and as Islandkilt notes, the ultimate alternative would be to end up naked and unshaven in the back yard, pounding rocks together, which if it were a warm day and the neighbors didn't complain, might be fun too but then someone might say that would just be "playing caveman" and some "real" caveman might take offense or "just not get it!" If a "real" cave man were to say: "Why in the world would anyone want to be a caveman," I'd begin to wonder about how he feels about being one himself. We all play at something, at least sometimes. Otherwise, life can be pretty dull. And again, sometimes a kilt is just more comfortable than trousers, period!

[Sir William]

Ok. I don't understand why you non Scots want to play at being Scots. Why can't you just be Russians , for example, or Americans, or Canadians. Now I have roots in Europe of one sort or another like many a Scot( or an American) no doubt, but we don't play at being Normans, Poles, Germans, whatevers so why do you chaps need to play at being Scots?

Because the American culture is all about playing at being a Scot or whatever else is in our heritage. I know it appears silly but there it is. No one else in the world understands us either.

We are so regionally and ethnically diverse that we have no distinctively national American dress, food, music, art, or even history. Consequently, we embrace our individual ethnic heritage instead. THAT is how Americans identify themselves.

[MT4Runner]

Indeed I can understand an interest in the past and I do well understand that some have a need to visit the home of their roots, so I wonder why are you all not going to Normandy, Norway are wherever too? Perhaps you do? Why stop at Scotland?

If and when I get across the pond to explore the homes of my roots, I will also visit Norway. I am only 3 generations removed from my Norwegian roots, and with a little help from family members, I can find the farm my great-grandfather left in 1918.

Definitely not stopping at Scotland.


As for national dress, my Mom is looking at making a bunad, the national dress of Norwegian women, which is mostly worn for ceremonial purposes. The male counterpart to the bunad dress is seldom worn, even by men in Norway.

I have worn horns and furry boots on a Sons of Norway parade float, and have not yet worn a kilt in a parade. ;)

[Lyle1]

It would be helpful allround if we all understood, not necessarily accept, each others point of view--------

Jock, you are part way there.

No, it is not expected that you or I, or anyone accept another person's point of view. Yes, it is helpful to understand another person's point of view. However, it is expected (at least by enlightened individuals) that we both acknowledge that each person has a right to his own point of view, and to also acknowledge that each person's point of view can have some validity (even if only for that individual) based on that person's personal background and experiences.

It would also help if you made better word choices and said something along the lines of simply not understanding why Americans have such an interest in Scottish culture. Phrases such as "playing at being a Scot" are insulting and inflammatory. Some have tried to explain why they view some of your posts as unkind, even rude, which did not please you. However, their comments would have had quite a different flavor if they had implied that you were "playing at being a gentleman."

[O'Searcaigh]

Post Script: If a man wears trousers, is he "playing at" being a Saxon?

[Brett]

Ok. I don't understand why you non Scots want to play at being Scots. Why can't you just be Russians , for example, or Americans, or Canadians. Now I have roots in Europe of one sort or another like many a Scot( or an American) no doubt, but we don't play at being Normans, Poles, Germans, whatevers so why do you chaps need to play at being Scots?

because I like to play dress-up sometimes and I choose the kilt as it's what I identify with.

the same reason native Scots like to play dress-up



I suppose I could where a toque, lumberjacket and fir top sorel boots to weddings and dress-up occasions but I would likely get too warm.