An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[Jock Scot]

BTW, Jock, the reason I play at being a Scot at various times at the Games is because it's fun.

Now, back to planning the invasion of Castle Jock.

That reason, I fully understand.

Ok an invasion is in the offing , please, PLEASE, and thrice PLEASE, promise me that GRANT is not coming!

Must check the razor wire, check the mine field, booby traps, ammunition stocks, food , water----no we have plenty of that, whisky MUST GET MORE WHISKY, check the zero on the field gun, hummmm plenty to do!

[kilted scholar]

It so happened that I found it difficult to sleep last night and took to reading the foreword to Robert Bain, The Clans and Tartans of Scotland (Glasgow: Fontana/Collins, 1985), written by The Right Honourable the Countess of Erroll 27th Hereditary Lord High Constable, the late head of Scottish Chivalry and holder of the office which has precedence over every hereditary honour in Scotland after the Blood Royal (p.6).

This should produce some reassurance for our friends from North America. The Countess wrote, p.7

"... all the bearers of great Scottish Names share alike in their ancient traditions. It is this brotherhood ... which links all Scots together and is so marked a feature of our countrymen wherever they may be. [my emphasis] We are all one family of Scots ..."

Later Margaret O. MacDougall, writing on the dress of the Highlander, affirms that "those who wear tartan and the Highland dress are helping to preserve the costume of our Scottish ancestors." (p. 31).

One brotherhood - wherever they may be - preserving the traditions and costume [sic] of our ancestors.

That, friends, comes not from North America but from Scotland and is a note on which I think it is far better to dwell.

[Jock Scot]

It so happened that I found it difficult to sleep last night and took to reading the foreword to Robert Bain, The Clans and Tartans of Scotland (Glasgow: Fontana/Collins, 1985), written by The Right Honourable the Countess of Erroll 27th Hereditary Lord High Constable, the late head of Scottish Chivalry and holder of the office which has precedence over every hereditary honour in Scotland after the Blood Royal (p.6).

This should produce some reassurance for our friends from North America. The Countess wrote, p.7

"... all the bearers of great Scottish Names share alike in their ancient traditions. It is this brotherhood ... which links all Scots together and is so marked a feature of our countrymen wherever they may be. [my emphasis] We are all one family of Scots ..."

Later Margaret O. MacDougall, writing on the dress of the Highlander, affirms that "those who wear tartan and the Highland dress are helping to preserve the costume of our Scottish ancestors." (p. 31).

One brotherhood - wherever they may be - preserving the traditions and costume [sic] of our ancestors.

That, friends, comes not from North America but from Scotland and is a note on which I think it is far better to dwell.

The cynical amongst us would just assume that many castles in Scotland are in need of a new roof and Dollars are very handy.

On that note count me out. I have tried to explain a point of view and many of you have tried to explain your angle on this seemingly difficult subject. I can add no more and I am tired and I am missing posts that require attention and answers and I see no resolution to it. You carry on without me if you so wish.

[BCAC]

It so happened that I found it difficult to sleep last night and took to reading the foreword to Robert Bain, The Clans and Tartans of Scotland (Glasgow: Fontana/Collins, 1985), written by The Right Honourable the Countess of Erroll 27th Hereditary Lord High Constable, the late head of Scottish Chivalry and holder of the office which has precedence over every hereditary honour in Scotland after the Blood Royal (p.6).

This should produce some reassurance for our friends from North America. The Countess wrote, p.7

"... all the bearers of great Scottish Names share alike in their ancient traditions. It is this brotherhood ... which links all Scots together and is so marked a feature of our countrymen wherever they may be. [my emphasis] We are all one family of Scots ..."

Later Margaret O. MacDougall, writing on the dress of the Highlander, affirms that "those who wear tartan and the Highland dress are helping to preserve the costume of our Scottish ancestors." (p. 31).

One brotherhood - wherever they may be - preserving the traditions and costume [sic] of our ancestors.

That, friends, comes not from North America but from Scotland and is a note on which I think it is far better to dwell.

This is fine for the Ex-pat himself, but in My opinion, NOT for his friggin' ggggggggrandson!

[Lyle1]

This is fine for the Ex-pat himself, but in My opinion, NOT for his friggin' ggggggggrandson!

I great puzzle for me is why you, and at least some other Scots, seem to care so much about the issue. It seems that the very idea that Americans hold the belief that as individuals our cultural heritage extends back to the homelands of our ancestors is offensive to you.

I will say this as politely as I can. Quite frankly I do not understand why anyone would presume to tell other people what they should value and what should be of interest and importance to them, so long as those beliefs cause harm to others. Does my thinking of myself as have a Scottish heritage (only one part of my genealogical family stew) detract from your well being in anyway?

[BCAC]

I great puzzle for me is why you, and at least some other Scots, seem to care so much about the issue. It seems that the very idea that Americans hold the belief that as individuals our cultural heritage extends back to the homelands of our ancestors is offensive to you.

I will say this as politely as I can. Quite frankly I do not understand why anyone would presume to tell other people what they should value and what should be of interest and importance to them, so long as those beliefs cause harm to others. Does my thinking of myself as have a Scottish heritage (only one part of my genealogical family stew) detract from your well being in anyway?

Nope, doesn't detract from my well being one iota. It's not offensive at all. We're not trying to tell you what to do or how to think (we're not that pretentious), we're just trying to understand you people doing something that we just don't feel the need to do.

[Lyle1]

we're just trying to understand you people doing something that we just don't feel the need to do.

I think, maybe, you touched on the main point of the issue, understanding one another's needs. You do not share our needs, and based on comments made many times on this forum, it is clear that there are a lot of misconceptions about the American perspective. That Scots don't understand our perspective is probably normal; even we don't have it all figured out. I don't ask that any Scot agree with our perspective, but I do get a little tired of the sniping from perhaps a half dozen or so Scottish members.

[Jock Scot]

I think, maybe, you touched on the main point of the issue, understanding one another's needs. You do not share our needs, and based on comments made many times on this forum, it is clear that there are a lot of misconceptions about the American perspective. That Scots don't understand our perspective is probably normal; even we don't have it all figured out. I don't ask that any Scot agree with our perspective, but I do get a little tired of the sniping from perhaps a half dozen or so Scottish members.

I am sorry but I do have to butt in here in spite of me trying to keep out of this thread. OK I have failed!

I think some of you Americans flatter yourselves. Speaking solely for myself I have, until now made a point of using the term of non Scot to specifically avoid the accusation of singling out America. Why? Because American defences instantly go up and ears, eyes and minds are instantly shut. I am sorry but it is true any your post above just proves it. America is not the only place in the world you know and I am very sorry that you consider that you are being singled out for criticism . It is just not true and I am sorry to have to remind you of it.

Now we have another trans-Atlantic problem that was raised a few posts ago and I think by the same person that I actually think does involve North America and this perceived lack respect that bothers some of you over there. Try as I might I choose my words carefully and I take real care to get it right and sometimes an innocent remark that I and indeed others from this side of the Atlantic make that we would not think twice about over here, causes upset over there. Well that is unfortunate and a swift apology is usually all that is necessary to rectify the problem. I can't think of an example but no doubt the same follows in reverse.

So real effort is required from ALL to be understanding and accept that what some one is saying is not quite what you think they are saying. It is difficult, probably very difficult for some, but I really think much of this "respect" issue that we appear to need to improve on is not the problem that some think it is. It is more down to this "common language" that we are trying to communicate civilly and respectfully with to each other.

In passing I think this perceived "sniping" is unhelpful and I don't believe that it is intended at all. But we have to accept that is how some feel, which is unfortunate, and it would be better by far for those feelings not to exist, but when honest views are being voiced and mostly with considerable care then occasionally, yes I mean occasionally, misunderstandings occur, if they do, a civil explanation why this lack of respect has taken place is usually all that is needed. Some how there appears to be an awful lot of overly sensitive people turning up at the moment.

Sorry all, but voicing an opinion and voicing it with care does seem to ruffle some awfully sensitive feathers. Alright perhaps more care needs to be taken, but it does seem to me that there are subjects that unreasonable sensitivities want to prevail. Before anyone says it, yes I do have a habit of voicing minority points of view and yes I do choose my words carefully and yes sometimes I get them wrong.So let us not resort to petty point scoring and look at the wider picture. Please.

[islandkilt]

Nope, doesn't detract from my well being one iota. It's not offensive at all. We're not trying to tell you what to do or how to think (we're not that pretentious), we're just trying to understand you people doing something that we just don't feel the need to do.

Really... c'mon... you mean Scotsmen - Highlanders in particular, don't feel a need?? are you telling me you don't all bounce brightly out of bed in the morning and jump - fireman style, into full Highland Scot Regalia, and skip down the stairs playing the pipes on your way to a haggis omelet breakfast at a hand-hewn breakfast table in front of a roaring fire in the great hearth of your grand castle and then stroll merrily across the drawbridge - stopping to give Nessie an affectionate pat on the head, before brightly dancing off to a day of fly fishing, grouse blasting, and dragon slaying?

all at once?

I'm dashed...

it's enough to put me back into pants...

so..now I'm finally old enough, secure enough (financially and psychologically both), don't-give-a-s*** enough, and coaxed (nay, hounded...) by my brother enough to go ahead and throw down a few bucks just so the dolt across the street can say, "nice dress"... and then I find out it's a freakin MINEFIELD....

geez

All my life - ALL of it - since childhood memory, I've been introduced to people who heard my name and asked if I shouldn't be wearing a kilt or did I play the bagpipes.... (or they'd irritatingly accuse me of being Irish...)

Damn if the UPS man didn't answer my wife's queery at the door in a (real)Scottish accent with, "It's a kilt." and follow it up by looking down at the address label and saying, "With a name like that, ye ought to have a kilt or two..." (I told him it's only my second, but my brother has like 12 thousand and he answered, "I've only got one"... so you know who's side HE's on...)

so maybe I felt there was an expectation I'd wear a kilt sooner or later, and in the back of my mind I must have always felt that I would...

I did have the idea (innate knowledge from my upbringing?) that if I were to wear a tartan it should be something i had some sort of association with... by the same token I associated wearing a tartan kilt at all with my Scots ancestry...

so I knew that it would entail a certain amount of respect and tradition, words you might think of when thinking of things like, "heritage", and, "ancestry"

but it never much occurred to me that I'd be doing it to honor anybody in particular (well yeah I'm sure Granddad'd be proud of course), or least of all to make some ol' grouse hunter back in the Highlands proud of my accomplishment in donning the cloth of my ancestors... (though at this point I hope he'll take some pleasure in my figuring out where the pleats go...)

So I come to this board (to increase my own knowledge - hell, I've never even been to highland games) and I see... (forgive me) Maloofabus Hindustani Gonzales Mahimda Zing Tao from Deeper Eastern Lower Frackazania... and read of his deep and abiding - perhaps even unnatural, love of his 87 kilts and his obsession with all things Celt...I'm not too far down the evolutionary ladder from those guys with thier Scot-born right to wear the kilt when I instinctively think, "Really??? but why?" of course, I follow that up with what I hope is a more reasonable, 'eh.. why not, have at it...'

so that initial thought comes from my paradigm, or the one I was raised with..

so who am I to deny any of the disciples of Jock Scot-ism - including the great man himself, theirs?

and I absolutely understand it...

and I never took it as anything else but what the quote I quoted above said it was... (didn't take too long to get to that point did it?)

So there.. that's enough..I've had my say and got entertain myself with the sound of my own writing.. if anyone else managed to meander their way through all of that... forgive me my flippancy, I have no intent to offend anybody, I think it's just the Scot in me...

[Woodsheal]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!