An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[O'Searcaigh]

Very, very, very well-said.

***

[Lyle1]

If "playing at being a Scot" is derogatory in Scotland, then it's inflammatory. If it's only derogatory to the reader, it's another reflection of the imperfect medium of written Internet dialogue!!

Actually, NO! If you participate in an international forum, you are expected to be aware of the cultural sensitivities of all members and to make an honest not to be insulting. If an offense is given unintentionally and notice of the offense is made, a reasonable person makes a concerted effort not to repeat the offensive action. It was pointed out to Jock that the "playing at being a Scot" phrase was offensive to some members, and he chose to continue using that verbiage. It is, therefore, quite inappropriate to claim innocence on the basis of ignorance or ineptness.

Using your line of reasoning, Americans could fill this forum with jokes and derogatory comments based on stereotypes of Scotland and the Scottish people and get a pass if the stereotypes are not offensive to most Americans.

[be da veva]

Then we go back to his house, broil the the fish, drink some whisky, and tell lies.

Good idea. Wait a minute, I'm allergic to fish, what will I eat???

[ForresterModern]

I was born in West Virginia of West Virginia born and bred parents, and moved to Ohio before my first birthday. So I am technically an American and West Virginia-ex-pat. I spent a lot of the free time of my youth and young adulthood back visiting family who remained in West Virginia and still do to this day. 31 years and a lot of education and life after that original ex-pat move, I started my professional life, left Ohio and have been a migrant worker of sorts for the last 21 years, having lived/worked in 6 different states across the US, now settled back into Kentucky, the state immediately west of West Virginia and south of Ohio, NOT home yet but close enough to keep up relations with family still based in West Virginia and spilled over into western Virginia itself.

I have traced my WV ancestry (speaking patrilineal only here) back at least 10 generations in that state, visited gravesites and homesteads and read family bible annotations and church and government records and deeds. These led me to the preceeding few generations in eastern Virginia, again with documents and deeds and homesteads and such. Through tenuous links I have traced that line back across the ocean to a ship leaving London in the late 1600s, and then through work performed by other members of my extended family, presumably still in the UK, back through another 10 or so generations to the several generations of my surname/patrilineal relatives who inhabited several castles in southern Scotland and Northern England (Torwood, Corstorphine, Bamborough come to mind). That same work of my distant relatives connects back through the Norman invasion to Flanders, where our first Forrester of that name originated, and then chased it back further to several generations of Flanders nobility until even the historians can go no further back. I also have traced other family lines to Germany, and Italy, and France (one supposed direct line to Charlemagne, if you can believe that), as well as more recent lines into the eastern Cherokee nation (I am 1/16th Cherokee), but there is far less information about the who's and the where's and such in those other lines. Where is this all leading you might be thinking?

The question you posed about "Why Scotland?". It is not just Scotland, but it has led to a well documented existence in Scotland for an very important part of my lineage, but by no means all of it. It is also West Virginia, Virginia, the pieces of the puzzle I can find to connect through England back to more solid and serious and historically important involvement in Scotland that has interested me in particular the most. Family owning multiple castles and estates, being wardens of several of the English and Scottish border Marches as well as part of the reiving culture of the time, all starting with that first Flemish-Norman Ricardus Forrestarius, first lieutenant to and brother-in-law of William the Conqueror of the 1066 Norman invasion, the first to bear the name Forrester and from whom theoretically all Forrester/Foster variants have descended through the years. From Scotland. I will chase back his progenitors in Flanders, and someday go visit the remnants of their lives and abodes thereof. I have also visited Germany and a couple places that a line of my mother's family has supposedly come from, but documentation is by no means as full and complete or as interesting as that of the patrilineal line, which fortunately or unfortunately leads right to SCOTLAND.

So for me, that is my "Why Scotland?" and at least one of the reasons I have started wearing the kilt, not daily but occasionally and for events, etc..., and why I have visited and will continue to visit Scotland, as well as other places in search of and attempt to link up with pieces of my family history and heritage. And to tell you the truth I like it.

Sorry, long run for what now seems kinda like a short slide. JF

[Jock Scot]

BTW, Jock, the reason I play at being a Scot at various times at the Games is because it's fun.

Now, back to planning the invasion of Castle Jock.

That reason, I fully understand.

Ok an invasion is in the offing , please, PLEASE, and thrice PLEASE, promise me that GRANT is not coming!

Must check the razor wire, check the mine field, booby traps, ammunition stocks, food , water----no we have plenty of that, whisky MUST GET MORE WHISKY, check the zero on the field gun, hummmm plenty to do!

[Jock Scot]

Actually, NO! If you participate in an international forum, you are expected to be aware of the cultural sensitivities of all members and to make an honest not to be insulting. If an offense is given unintentionally and notice of the offense is made, a reasonable person makes a concerted effort not to repeat the offensive action. It was pointed out to Jock that the "playing at being a Scot" phrase was offensive to some members, and he chose to continue using that verbiage. It is, therefore, quite inappropriate to claim innocence on the basis of ignorance or ineptness.

Using your line of reasoning, Americans could fill this forum with jokes and derogatory comments based on stereotypes of Scotland and the Scottish people and get a pass if the stereotypes are not offensive to most Americans.

I must have missed the complaint , I was genuinely unaware that someone was upset, so please accept a belated apology.

[BCAC]

I really tried to keep out of this thread, honestly. This is the 8th time I've typed out a reply only to hestitate in sending it for fear of upsetting people through my misunderstanding. There is soooo much to say. I will try to keep it short. On the whole, I agree with Jock's views.

Being en Ex-pat myself, that side of things I understand very well. One thing about Ex-pats I don't understand is how they can take another Nationality. That is one thing that I just couldn't do.

THE thing that I just don't get is that there are some people who were born in the USA with Scottish connections a few generations away, and they spend pots (and pots) of money to buy (only) bespoke highland garments (kilts, jackets etc(and are a bit "snobbish" about this)), some even spend more and more pots of money to get official documents signed to make them "someone" in their clan (to which they are legitimately entitled). These people give the impression that, from the bottom of their heart (and their wallet) they desperately want to be Scottish. Do these people know that no matter how much money they spend or how many documents they pay for they will NEVER be a Scotsman?

I don't want to upset anyone (which is why I tried to stay out of this thread) but a lot of these people seem to be looking for an excuse for wearing their bespoke kilts, kinda like my gggggggggggggrandfather came over from the Isle of Muckle, and he was someone in the clan MacFudge, so I'm wearing this and getting the right documents signed to be someone also in the clan MacFudge to honor him.

If you want to wear the kilt, then wear it! You don't need an excuse. Jock will always tell you how it's done in the Highlands.

I don't see the need to delve deeply into my ancestry, either. I'm Scottish, my parents are Scottish, my grandparents are Scottish. This I know because I lived among them. I don't need to know any further. Maybe there are some strange "roots" in the family tree somewhere long ago, but I just don't feel the need to know (much less the need to "honor" these possible long lost ancestors).

Another thing that comes to mind. You're all Scottish-American, or Scots-Irish-American or something-American. There don't seem to be many Americans around (but then again, if there are any, they probably don't come on this site).

Maybe you have to be in this situation (as explained by Rocky) to understand that part of it.

I'm sorry if I upset or angered anyone, this is simply my few words on a difficult subject hard to understand. Maybe we'll all have to agree to disagree and perhaps it would be better for everyone if we stopped trying to understand!

[MT4Runner]

Actually, NO! If you participate in an international forum, you are expected to be aware of the cultural sensitivities of all members and to make an honest not to be insulting. If an offense is given unintentionally and notice of the offense is made, a reasonable person makes a concerted effort not to repeat the offensive action.

If someone wanted to take offense, nearly anything said could be made notice of. Said international forum could get pretty quiet. ;)

I guess I've been hanging out on the wrong international forums (not necessarily this one). Everything can be taken with a grain of salt and a lot discussed.

Other than overt racism or sexism, not much offends me.

Using your line of reasoning, Americans could fill this forum with jokes and derogatory comments based on stereotypes of Scotland and the Scottish people and get a pass if the stereotypes are not offensive to most Americans.

That's taking it to an extreme, but I get your point.

[Woot22]

Why stop at Scotland?It all seems a tad "convenient" to me, as your roots will often go further back than Scotland.

Honestly I think many people such as myself, specifically because there are many different cultures that make up my heritage, tend to focus on our surname. Yes, I am sure I am a bit like most Americans where I am descended from many different people from all across Europe but I carry my last name from my Scottish Great Great Grandfather. So for this simple reason alone Scotland has always had and will always have a greater interest and fondness for me.

[kilted scholar]

It so happened that I found it difficult to sleep last night and took to reading the foreword to Robert Bain, The Clans and Tartans of Scotland (Glasgow: Fontana/Collins, 1985), written by The Right Honourable the Countess of Erroll 27th Hereditary Lord High Constable, the late head of Scottish Chivalry and holder of the office which has precedence over every hereditary honour in Scotland after the Blood Royal (p.6).

This should produce some reassurance for our friends from North America. The Countess wrote, p.7

"... all the bearers of great Scottish Names share alike in their ancient traditions. It is this brotherhood ... which links all Scots together and is so marked a feature of our countrymen wherever they may be. [my emphasis] We are all one family of Scots ..."

Later Margaret O. MacDougall, writing on the dress of the Highlander, affirms that "those who wear tartan and the Highland dress are helping to preserve the costume of our Scottish ancestors." (p. 31).

One brotherhood - wherever they may be - preserving the traditions and costume [sic] of our ancestors.

That, friends, comes not from North America but from Scotland and is a note on which I think it is far better to dwell.