An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[CDNSushi]

I'm thinking we have beat this dead horse to death repeatedly over the last few weeks and its time to bury the poor beast.

I shall bring some fine single malt to the wake.

Do we have someone to volunteer as a bagpiper?

[Jock Scot]

Oh I am well aware of the fifth column lurking. My security service informs me that on or around 15/18 of April an attempt to infiltrate the camp will be made. Heh Heh Heh, we have our methods of looking after these fellows, I can assure you!

In the meantime the gun crew are instructed to fire at, on first sight, any boat with pointy bits at each end. I should mention that they have never been known to miss.

[O'Searcaigh]

Worry not AA, that is not what I am thinking and never have. Thus far today, my thoughts are concentrated on; "I am not sure that I like this new marmalade and should I have some more toast to confirm my thoughts?"

Decisions decisions, oh what to do?

Wonderful Jock, you are a fine, reasonable and apparently very patient, sane, generous and understanding man. I was not going to put up any further posts in this thread because for me it could have (and for me, should have) ended back on page 11 when you kindly responded to my queries and clarified -- and I must say excellently -- what you have been trying to say all along, except perhaps in words some of us Yanks just didn't understand. No doubt I pressed you as hard or harder than any; after all, I belong to the profession whose founder was executed for asking too many pointed questions! I hope you know that my only motivation was to try to better understand (rather than misunderstand) you. No offense was either implied or taken for my part in any of it. In that kindly given response it seemed to me that you made it perfectly clear that you are not saying, and never have said, that you can't understand why someone who is not now living in the highlands would ever want to -- and should not -- wear a kilt. In fact, you gave (and have given) plenty of examples to the contrary (I think I like the "pulls" the girls and "comfort" ones best, but that's just me). You even said you'd lend a kilt of your own to an Australian who might have been invited to "play at" being a Scot at a Scottish themed "fancy dress" "affair." Yet, some of us "Yanks" just didn't seem to "get it." Language can be a slippery thing. While in the Navy I had several occasions to go on "liberty" with sailors from other English speaking nations (Australia, Canada, UK) and though we all got along famously for the most part (who wouldn't out drinking beer?), we sometimes had difficulties communicating. For example, in the sentence above words like "play at" "fancy dress" and "affair" are notoriously ambiguous and open to many interpretations which might lead to someone taking offense -- or a good laugh! Personally, I prefer laughing much more than being offended. As far as I can tell, the only thing you "don't get" is someone who is not a highlander (i.e., someone not actually living in the highlands) wearing a kilt as though it were their national/cultural dress. Quite frankly, I don't get that either because that would either be a flat out contradiction or an example of deceit. All the other stuff about personal tastes etc. is just good fun to which I certainly do not, and would hope others would not, take offense. Oh yea, buy the way, I don't much like marmalade at all although I'm rather partial to apricot jam. I'm pretty sure you're not offended by that! Off now to drink coffee and eat a blueberry scone; Cheers! Affectionately, Paul -- [P.S. I'm not much one for participating in invasions but if you'd like some help defending your castle, I'd be honored to help man the parapets.]

[Jock Scot]

A turncoat! Surely not! But thank you for the offer. LOL




Now, what the devil did I say on page eleven????

[O'Searcaigh]

A turncoat! Surely not! But thank you for the offer. LOL

Now, what the devil did I say on page eleven????

Turncoat? No, absolutely not; mercenary, well maybe! (I understand you have some good single malt).

[Jock Scot]

Turncoat? No, absolutely not; mercenary, well maybe! (I understand you have some good single malt).

Ah yes a mercenary eh, a Navy man, could be useful, but only by not allowing him to offer his services by the "Colonial Mob". Hummm. OK pop on over, we will make space for you in the dunge----er, I mean, one of the guest rooms.

Sorry to disappoint you, but whisky is only for the C.O., other ranks drink----------- er well, something else. -----------Tea probably.

[O'Searcaigh]

Ah yes a mercenary eh, a Navy man, could be useful, but only by not allowing him to offer his services by the "Colonial Mob". Hummm. OK pop on over, we will make space for you in the dunge----er, I mean, one of the guest rooms.

Sorry to disappoint you, but whisky is only for the C.O., other ranks drink----------- er well, something else. -----------Tea probably.

Hmmm.... having been a hospital corpsman (medic) for a while and as I am retired from medical, public, and mental health (no wise cracks please) teaching I would hope my services would not be required. I do also like good tea but .... ' may have to reconsider; after all, a mercenary of my rank must have his due. Maybe I'll just have to stand-by as a "conscientious objector" -- well an objector at any rate! BTW that founder of my profession that was executed was Socrates (executed for impiety) -- just so no-one mistakenly takes me for someone with piety. BTW, I wasn't born in the colonies; don;'t even live in one of those now. No loyalties to that Mob indeed!

[creagdhubh]

I might also add...as has happened a few times on the board, that if you ask Jocks opinion, LISTEN to it, and give it some weight. What you choose to do with it, as he says, is up to you.

But to ask his opinion and then bellow at him that you don't LIKE his opinion, and that you're going to wear it the way you damn well please is just rude and stupid. Jock is "old school". Nothing wrong with that, but if you don't want to hear an "old school" opinion, then don't bug the man with demands for his opinion!

BTW Jock, I'll sit at your right hand if I ever get to Scotland, and Mrs. Jock lets me!

Well said, Alan!

[creagdhubh]

I am sorry but I do have to butt in here in spite of me trying to keep out of this thread. OK I have failed!

I think some of you Americans flatter yourselves. Speaking solely for myself I have, until now made a point of using the term of non Scot to specifically avoid the accusation of singling out America. Why? Because American defences instantly go up and ears, eyes and minds are instantly shut. I am sorry but it is true any your post above just proves it. America is not the only place in the world you know and I am very sorry that you consider that you are being singled out for criticism . It is just not true and I am sorry to have to remind you of it.

Now we have another trans-Atlantic problem that was raised a few posts ago and I think by the same person that I actually think does involve North America and this perceived lack respect that bothers some of you over there. Try as I might I choose my words carefully and I take real care to get it right and sometimes an innocent remark that I and indeed others from this side of the Atlantic make that we would not think twice about over here, causes upset over there. Well that is unfortunate and a swift apology is usually all that is necessary to rectify the problem. I can't think of an example but no doubt the same follows in reverse.

So real effort is required from ALL to be understanding and accept that what some one is saying is not quite what you think they are saying. It is difficult, probably very difficult for some, but I really think much of this "respect" issue that we appear to need to improve on is not the problem that some think it is. It is more down to this "common language" that we are trying to communicate civilly and respectfully with to each other.

In passing I think this perceived "sniping" is unhelpful and I don't believe that it is intended at all. But we have to accept that is how some feel, which is unfortunate, and it would be better by far for those feelings not to exist, but when honest views are being voiced and mostly with considerable care then occasionally, yes I mean occasionally, misunderstandings occur, if they do, a civil explanation why this lack of respect has taken place is usually all that is needed. Some how there appears to be an awful lot of overly sensitive people turning up at the moment.

Sorry all, but voicing an opinion and voicing it with care does seem to ruffle some awfully sensitive feathers. Alright perhaps more care needs to be taken, but it does seem to me that there are subjects that unreasonable sensitivities want to prevail. Before anyone says it, yes I do have a habit of voicing minority points of view and yes I do choose my words carefully and yes sometimes I get them wrong.So let us not resort to petty point scoring and look at the wider picture. Please.

***

[ctbuchanan]

I realize that this thread has gone around many circuits but I pulled out my new copy of T.M. Devine's history “To the Ends of the Earth: Scotland’s Global Diaspora 1750-2010” and he discusses this issue at length in the final chapter. It runs to several pages so I will only give you a few salient quotes.

“By 1970 there were only 170,000 Scots-born in the USA, fewer than at an time since 1860: ‘on the average probably older, and on both counts more likely than ever to cling to the remnants of folkways long since outmoded in Scotland’ (Bertoff, Under the Kilt). Against this background, few could have predicted the explosion of ‘Scottishness’, American-style, that was now about to take place. The transformation came, not from the dwindling numbers of immigrants from Scotland, but rather from new categories of self-professed Scots, often removed by several generations from the old country and sometimes having the most tenuous direct diasporic connections with Scotland.”

“The numbers speak for themselves. In the early 21st century around 300 Highland games took place in North America every year. Between 1960 and 1980, the number in the United States alone tripled, from a mere two dozen to over seventy. From 1985 to 2003 the rate of growth quadrupled. By 2005, 150 Scottish clan societies and ‘family associations’ had been established.”

“Perhaps the most striking fact about this upsurge in Scottish-American interest is its novelty. It cannot simply be seen as a revival of nineteenth and early twentieth century Scottish diasporic traditions, although at its core, the myths and stories of auld Scotia still loom large. In essence, the recent evolution and popularity of Scottish heritage in the United States is an indigenous American development, managed and directed by the transatlantic diaspora and often containing elements which native Scots find risible or even offensive.”

“The warrior ethos is physically celebrated at Highland games across the South by the proliferation of broadswords, dirks, halberds, spears, Lochaber axes, targes, claymores and chain-mail, an array of weaponry which would result in immediate police intervention in the old country.”

“Needless to say, as one commentator (Celeste Ray) has put it, ‘What the Scottish diaspora conceives as Scottish can be excruciating for Scots’.”


These are not my own words obviously, but I found them relevant. The author goes on to talk at length about the “Braveheart phenomenon”, more on the proliferation of Clan societies, the fact that there are more than 1,900 pipe bands in the USA alone and the number grows each year. A good read for those with an historic interest.