Difference Between US Marine Corps Tartan & Leatherneck Tartan

[creagdhubh]

Lochcarron's weave looks much smarter in my opinion! I've always preferred the colours of Lochcarron and D.C. Dalgliesh versus any other mill.

Slainte,

[Dixiedog]

WOW Folks... This is Great !!! I really opened up a Real Can of Worms with this Thread. You Folks are Fantastic !!! It's Great to see this much input on this topic as it shows that the XMS Members, both Kilt Wearers & Kilt Makers, know more about the Rules & Regs of Tartan Designs than the Mills that manufacture the Tartans in the First Place, do !!! Keep It Up Y'all !!!

[thescot]

The Leatherneck tartan was designed by Robert Hall, an acquaintance of mine and a Viet Nam Marine. He lives in Minn. or Wisconsin or one of those strange-shaped states up north.

I think the difference should only be in the color actually used by the different mills. I'm not sure where mine was woven, but it's the brighter color. I didn't even know there was a "USMC" tartan as Bob calls it the Leatherneck. I'm wondering if someone hasn't taken liberties with the records. I'll point Bob to this thread and see what he has to say.

[Sir William]

Here are the two tartans side by side.



One is from Strathmore and one from Lochcarron.

Eventhough both Tartans in the STA have the exact thread counts, which would or should make them identical, note that the reds in the top example are narrower between the gold and wider elsewhere. The bottom example has the red widths reversed. This would make both of these incorrect.

This seems to be a case of the weavers taking quite a bit of liberty with the listed thread counts.

After reading this I went and looked at my box-pleated kilt made by Matt Newsome. Unfortunately, I don't know who wove the cloth but the colors appear closer to the Lochcarron.

I was relieved to see that the red stripes are all equal width (and of the wider width as seen in the examples above).

[Dixiedog]

Steve... John Rickman here...

Thank you for taking the time to pin up a sample of your Leatherneck Tartan pleated to the Gold Stripe for me. It is Greatly Appreciated !!!

One question though... How wide are your pleats (3/4 on 1 inch ?) and about how many of them can you get with 8 yards of Tartan with a 42 inch waist ???

I'm only asking because my Leatherneck came in yesterday with 22 pleats at 1.5 inchs wide using 8 yards of Tartan with a 41-42 inch waist. I ordered my Leatherneck with the Gold Stripe at the leading edge of the 1.5 inch pleats to show more (1 inch Blue Stripe) reveal before the next pleat starts. It also spaces out the Gold a little so that the Gold dosen't Over-power the rest of the colors.

The pattern looks pretty good and because the pleat goes 1.5 inchs, it causes the Large Lighter Green Stripe with the Red Stripes (hiding under the reveal of the next pleat) to FLASH when walking. It's not real dynamic, but it works to some extent.

I came up with that idea before I read Barb T.'s FLASH Idea that would have worked even better, because it Completely hides the Brightest (Double Gold) Stripe under the reveal. Which causes a much more Dynamic Flash when walking.

But this is a Leatherneck Kilt and I think that there is a RULE Engraved in Stone somewhere out there that says, "THOU SHALT NOT HIDE THE GOLD STRIPE ON A LEATFERNECK TARTAN !!!" So I think I'll just keep it as it is !!!

Steve... I just want to say that I really enjoy your Posts and your Pictures on XMTS. You really help us out with our Kilted Problems and I just want to say Thank You for Time and Help...

Most Sincerely...

Here is a shot of some test pleating of my leatherneck kilt.

The fabric that is pleated is the more subdued from Lochcarron.
The roll of fabric you can see on the right is the brighter from Strathmore.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I would suggest that we are overthinking this issue a bit. What we have here is not a case of two different tartans recorded with the STA, but the same single tartan recorded twice, under two different names.

Without talking with Brian Wilton (STA Director) I can only guess why, but my assumption would be so that there would be an entry both under the name US Marine Corps and Leatherneck, in order to make the tartan more easily found in the search engines.

Indeed, just from looking at the numbers of the tartans, I can tell you that No. 975 was added early on in the original Scottish Tartan Society database, and No. 3612 would have been added much later by the Scottish Tartans Authority (the old STS database never got that high in numbers).

I note that it is the latter tartan that is called "Leatherneck" and that record was most likely added because of the frequency of which the USMC tartan is called by that name. They would have wanted it to be found under "Leatherneck" if anyone went looking for it.

Why there is a slight color difference is anyone's guess. My theory would be that when the second record was created they were going off of an actual woven sample. Certainly the software they were using to input the record at the time would have allowed whomever entered the data a wider range of color options. If memory serves, the original STS software was fairly limited in those terms.

But as has been pointed out, the thread counts are exactly the same in both cases. And the STA does not go about recording every minor color variation of each tartan, otherwise there would need to be a different entry for the modern, ancient, muted, weathered, etc., from each of the woolen mills, as they each have their own different color palette they use, etc. It would be a nightmare.

The color difference in the two samples Steve posted can simply be chalked up to the fact that the samples were woven by two different mills. This would be true of most any tartan.

The same can be said about the slight variation in width on some of the stripes. This happens more often than one might think. For example, here are two samples of the ancient Armstrong tartan, one woven by Lochcarron, the other by House of Edgar.



Note the difference in widths of the wide black stripe. Why would mills do this? I suggest it is not a matter of "poor quality control" but may in fact be something done intentionally in order to distinguish their product from another company's. Why would someone choose tartan woven by one mill over another? Perhaps they like that mill's colors better? Perhaps they like the way that mill laid out the proportions of the tartan better? If every mill wove every tartan identically, there could be no competition between them.

And remember that the thread counts recorded for tartans are not absolute. They are to give an indication of the pattern and the general proportions. I don't think any observer would have a problem looking at both samples that Steve posted pictures of and identifying them as the Leatherneck tartan, despite the minor color differences and the different widths of the red stripes.

So let's not loose too much sleep over this, shall we? :-)

[creagdhubh]

Quite right, Matt!

[Geoff Withnell]

Just for fun, when I get home tonight, I'm going to compare my Barb Tewksbury Leatherneck box pleat (I'm not sure what mill made it, Barb had the fabric on hand), and my Stillwater Heavyweight (also wool, but not a Scottish mill) Leatherneck. I'll post pictures.

[thescot]

Everyone can say what they want, but I asked the actual designer of the Leathernck tartan, and this is what he said (I take it as authoritative):

"I tried to log in but it gave me problems. my user name is tartanmarine. With a FT management job, I don't have time to mess with it.

In any case, there is no USMC Tartan. Can't be unless the USMC approves. I'm the designer of the Leatherneck Tartan, with input from Rory MacLeod of the Scottish Tartans Society. I submitted a design to the STS back in the 1980s. Rory suggested two changes, one of which I accepted, one of which I changed further. The pictures just show weavers using different hues.

Some dealers refer to it as the USMC Tartan, helps sales, but incorrect.

It is an open tartan, anyone may weave & sell, no royalty to me. Just honor to my Corps."

As I said earlier, there really is no "USMC" tartan unless someone else registered it or the Authority decided to name it that and change the name of one of the colors used, which it appears they did. Piperdbh is right; they're the same with varying shdes of colors, and, it looks to me, some weavers decided to monkey with the thread count on some of them. I guess that means they're not woven a true Leatherneck, but a slight variation of it.

Surely we've all seen other tartans which were not exactly the same shade before this. If not, do a little comparing at the next clan gathering you attend.

[Geoff Withnell]

As promised, Barb's box pleat and the Stillwater heavyweight:



Based on both the color and red stripe widths, I believe Barb used the Strathmore. I haven't done a count, but the Stillwater has equal width red stripes, but the blue and green stripes seem smaller, an=s the squares bordered by the gold stripes seem somewhat smaller relative to the gold stripes.