Difference Between US Marine Corps Tartan & Leatherneck Tartan

[davidlpope]

As promised, Barb's box pleat and the Stillwater heavyweight:



Based on both the color and red stripe widths, I believe Barb used the Strathmore. I haven't done a count, but the Stillwater has equal width red stripes, but the blue and green stripes seem smaller, an=s the squares bordered by the gold stripes seem somewhat smaller relative to the gold stripes.

Not sure, but it looks like Barb used Dalgliesh fabric to me.

As far as I know there are six mills that have woven this tartan:

Strathmore
Dalgliesh
Lochcarron
Robert Noble
Whoever weaves for Stillwater
Whoever weaves for Sportkilt

I've always taken the stance that minor variations in thread count or colors don't create a different tartan. I think that the STA is right. These are the same tartan. I wish they hadn't registered them separately under different names.

See these threads for related discussion:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...0/#post1033301
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...s-album-68835/

[M. A. C. Newsome]

it looks to me, some weavers decided to monkey with the thread count on some of them. I guess that means they're not woven a true Leatherneck, but a slight variation of it.

I think you missed my point, Jim. A minor variation in the thread count like what we see here would still constitute "the Leatherneck tartan." No one would think of calling it "a variation of the Leatherneck tartan." To me, that would suggest a weaver changed the blue to brown, or something more substantial such as that, but otherwise kept the pattern the same.

But what we see here is simply a weave deciding to use 4 threads rather than 6 and that sort of minor variation. This sort of thing happens all the time, with any number of tartans, and is just part of the industry.

[thescot]

I think you missed my point, Jim. A minor variation in the thread count like what we see here would still constitute "the Leatherneck tartan." No one would think of calling it "a variation of the Leatherneck tartan." To me, that would suggest a weaver changed the blue to brown, or something more substantial such as that, but otherwise kept the pattern the same.

But what we see here is simply a weave deciding to use 4 threads rather than 6 and that sort of minor variation. This sort of thing happens all the time, with any number of tartans, and is just part of the industry.

Actually, I wrote mine before I read yours, so I didn't really know your point.

I will certainly bow to your expertise as to the patois of things tartan; my point was that it was exacltly what you say: a weaver changed the thread count on some of the stripes, which seem to me to "vary" the actual product from its recorded thread count. I agree; it's still the Leatherneck tartan which is what Bob and God intended.

As a mathmetician, I would say it's not a Leatheneck with 4 instead of 6 threads; the engineer in me says that it's close enough for practical purposes.

The recording of a "USMC" or "US Marine Corps" is not what the designer or our Lord intended. There is only the Leatherneck, and until the Commandant decides otherwise, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[Mickey]

the engineer in me says that it's close enough for practical purposes.

I have never in my life heard those words out of an engineer, and I've worked with the best of them! You sir, are a technician at heart

[mookien]

... I will certainly bow to your expertise as to the patois of things tartan; my point was that it was exacltly what you say: a weaver changed the thread count on some of the stripes, which seem to me to "vary" the actual product from its recorded thread count. I agree; it's still the Leatherneck tartan which is what Bob and God intended.

As a mathmetician, I would say it's not a Leatheneck with 4 instead of 6 threads; the engineer in me says that it's close enough for practical purposes. ...

I believe the tartan world would benefit if it conformed to Jim's "mathematician side", ie if the ratio of the numbers in a threadcount change, then it should be considered a different tartan.

Advantages would include a loss of ambiguity and the elimination of boggy discussions like this one, and an earlier one on the differences between two U.S. Air Force tartans - the Lady Jane and Strathmore's "US Air Force (Not Official)" tartan. For those masochists on the blog, see the post

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-tartan-70031/


Relevant to this discussion, the SRT states ...

"Your new tartan must be both unique and 'sufficiently different' to all tartans already recorded in the Register. Sufficiently different means that it must be possible to clearly differentiate your tartan from all the other thousands of tartans already recorded, distinguishable by eye at a distance of approximately 2m (6ft). In practice this means that

* the geometry of a design must be sufficiently different, ie. the blocks of solid colours and the mixtures used in a design must be arranged in a different pattern to all other designs already recorded.
* a new tartan will use different colours in substantially different proportions and ordered differently to all tartans already recorded. Changing the shades of the colours used is insufficient to differentiate a new design since tartans are traditionally recorded in the base colours of red, yellow, green, blue, brown, grey, black and white. Any shade of blue will still be recorded as blue, likewise green etc.
* over-check(s) or additional stripe(s) in contrasting colour(s) can be added to create a new tartan, providing the over-check or stripe is clearly visible when woven.

The following changes to an existing sett will not create a new tartan that is 'sufficiently different':

* increasing or diminishing the size of the sett (the pattern). Threadcounts are frequently expanded or diminished for use in kilts or ties etc whilst retaining the essential proportions and geometry of the original design.
* changing the shade of the colours used. Tartan setts are compared according to their base colours as the final shade of the woven fabric will depend on the wools available to the weaver. Therefore, for example, light blue, navy blue and purple are all considered to be blue and changing the shade from light to dark blue will not change the basic pattern.

In reaching a view on whether a design is unique and sufficiently different to all others already recorded, the Keeper may consult such persons as he considers appropriate."

Thus, as I read the above, tartan uniqueness is preserved under (de)magnification, and a color-shading rule that appears to be just left of "whoopie!".

Of course the last sentence gives the Keeper LOTS of leeway to decide whether a new tartan is unique, or not, eg post a query on XMTS and let the gentlefolk decide.


If you are still reading and interested at this point, check out the difference between HoE's Stewart Hunting Modern tartan in heavyweight available from the drop-down menu at

http://www.houseofedgar.com/acatalog...tock_Clan.html

and the same (?) tartan in regimental weight at

http://www.houseofedgar.com/acatalog/Tartans1.html

In the latter incarnation it appears to have a wider red stripe than yellow stripe, similar to the 4
to 6 thread change that Jim wrote about - "close enough for practical purposes".