Question about flashes...

[creagdhubh]

Generally when this tartan is pleated the kiltmaker has to create a pattern for it, as it would be impossible to pleat to either sett or stripe given the huge repeat size.

Intriguing indeed. I've always been quite fascinated by the Ogilvie tartan - i.e., it's colour scheme, complex sett, historical apsect, etc. If someone ever commissioned an Ogilvie kilt to be made by you Matt, or if you ever decide to make one for yourself, it would be very interesting to see this process being done, step by step. Either way, photos of each particular step would be awesome - perhaps a nice topic for your blog - this is all hypothetically speaking, naturally.

Cheers,

[Woodsheal]

A 1618 description of Highland dress, by one John Taylor - a Londoner who travelled through Scotland in 1618:

"Their habite is shooes with but one sole apiece; stockings (which they call short hose) made of a warm stuffe of diverse colours, which they call Tartane: as for breeches, many of them, nor their forefathers, never wore any, but a jerkin of the same stuffe that their hose is of, their garters being bands or wreathes of hay or straw, with a plead about their shoulders, which is a mantle of divers colours, much finer and lighter stuffe then their hose, with blue flat caps on their heads, a handkerchiefe knit with two knots about their necke; and thus are they attyred."

[figheadair]

Intriguing indeed. I've always been quite fascinated by the Ogilvie tartan - i.e., it's colour scheme, complex sett, historical apsect, etc. If someone ever commissioned an Ogilvie kilt to be made by you Matt, or if you ever decide to make one for yourself, it would be very interesting to see this process being done, step by step. Either way, photos of each particular step would be awesome - perhaps a nice topic for your blog - this is all hypothetically speaking, naturally.

Cheers,

We're going a bit off topic but if one was going to get the Ogilvie woven it would have to be the HSL version which is probably the oldest and certainly the most beautiful.

I'm in the early stages of a paper about the Ogilvie/Drummond of Strathallan and their connection with the original tartan used by the Royal Company of Archers.

[figheadair]

I have no clue about the University of Iowa, but I am fairly certain that the Scottish regiments in the late 1800s and early 1900s had adapted a sort of colour code for their flashes. I can't claim to know the particulars, but I remember hearing about it in a demonstration from a gentleman who always does a WWI "living history" demonstration at our local Highland Games. He goes into a lot of detail on the uniform, equipment, weaponry, etc. And I could swear he mentioned something about the colour of the flashes being related to the type of service or the role of the person wearing them. As in, riflemen wore red, others wore green or yellow (???).

Perhaps someone else here knows those rules, or could correct me if my memory is completely mistaken?

Generally the flashes of British military units are/were red which is probably a reflection of the older traditional garter ties that were striped but predominately red. The odd regiment may, I think, have worn green and the London Scottish wore blue flashes.

Flashes were never used to signify role with th possible exception that some pipers may have worn different colours in the same way that their tartan differed from the rest of the regiment.

[Mike_Oettle]

A fascinating discussion on flashes – I am taking it all in with great interest.
Regarding the Ogilvy tartan, I recall that a bit of media fuss was made about it at the time of Princess Alexandra’s wedding to Angus Ogilvy, it was worn by members of the wedding party (pages, at any rate, if not the groom himself).
Ogilvy, it might be recalled, declined offers of a title and only quite late in his life (1988) accepted a knighthood. He was the second son of the 12th Earl of Airlie.
Wikipedia has a rendition of his arms (somewhat distorted) which includes a blue crescent (mark of a second son) above the family’s red lion passant gardant (which is both crowned and gorged).
I recall mention at the time of the wedding that there was a hoodoo of sorts about the Ogilvy tartan because it had been worn by a number of clan members who were massacred at some point in history – my recollection may be wrong, but I would love to have the details from the historians among us.
I am aware that it is a very intricate tartan and has consequently cropped up in a number of different forms. There are 14 listed by the SRT under the name form Ogilvie (although these include a hunting sett, one in black and white and the Ohio state tartan), plus two for Ogilvy and two more named as Ogilvy or Drummond of Strathallan.
Regards,
Mike

[figheadair]

I recall mention at the time of the wedding that there was a hoodoo of sorts about the Ogilvy tartan because it is claimed that it had been worn by a number of clan members who were massacred at some point in history – my recollection may be wrong, but I would love to have the details from the historians among us.

Note the emphasis. This is another one of theose historical myths. There is no evidence that the Ogilvie/Drummond of Strathallan existed much before the end of the 18th century.

[creagdhubh]

We're going a bit off topic but if one was going to get the Ogilvie woven it would have to be the HSL version which is probably the oldest and certainly the most beautiful.

I'm in the early stages of a paper about the Ogilvie/Drummond of Strathallan and their connection with the original tartan used by the Royal Company of Archers.

Wonderful, Peter! I would love to read your paper (when it is finished, naturally) on the issue.

Cheers,

[macwilkin]

I have no clue about the University of Iowa, but I am fairly certain that the Scottish regiments in the late 1800s and early 1900s had adapted a sort of colour code for their flashes. I can't claim to know the particulars, but I remember hearing about it in a demonstration from a gentleman who always does a WWI "living history" demonstration at our local Highland Games. He goes into a lot of detail on the uniform, equipment, weaponry, etc. And I could swear he mentioned something about the colour of the flashes being related to the type of service or the role of the person wearing them. As in, riflemen wore red, others wore green or yellow (???).

Perhaps someone else here knows those rules, or could correct me if my memory is completely mistaken?

Can't say I've ever heard that one; facings (collar and cuffs) colours on military tunics did serve that purpose; the Childers Reforms of 1881 (which attempted to force all Scottish regiments to wear the Government Sett) did standardise them with Scottish regiments wearing yellow facings and "Royal" regiments (The Royal Highland Regiment) wearing dark blue. That may be what this gentlemen was describing.

T.

[macwilkin]

Another, related, question about flashes: I have read that flashes were used as a mark of status in the University of Iowa bagpipe band. Pipers with less experience--I'm assuming that there's an initiation or rite of passage involved here--used to wear plain elastic bands without a flash to hold up hose. I haven't been able to find the origin of this tradition. I was wondering if anyone knew if it was military in origin. I'll wait for the answer off-air. Thanks!

Never heard of it in the Scottish regiments of the Commonwealth. It may be a Iowa Highlanders custom. I know the USMA Pipes & Drums have a specific tradition regarding the placing of their flashes, but I don't remember the details...

T.

[Joe Gondek]

when wearing knee pants in 18th century, garters are a simple thin leather strap with flat buckle.

It would be an easy matter to slide a modern style flash over the strap