The Kilt's use in Irish Nationalism

[Paul Henry]

I have no personal stake in this debate, not being Irish or having any connection with Ireland, but I thought this link might be of interest. I came across it in looking at the news on the BBC website today. It's about a St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham today that attracted 85,000 people and contains a picture of a kilted pipe band. I have no point to prove on this - I see no reason to depart from the clear historical position that the kilt has no established links to Ireland.
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-12727171

It was last year's news, but there may wellbe another this year!

[Blackrose87]

I think this discussion has gone way off topic, so sorry if that was may fault at all.
I was originally curious about the use of the kilt by some early 20th century nationalist leaders in Ireland. Being a nationalist myself, I found it strange that I had only just discovered this, even thought studied Irish history at school.
I don't think Pearse and any followers felt that their was any historical or cultural link to the kilt, and Pearse said as much himself. They were not trying to find a link in history as justification.

[seanachie]

I think this discussion has gone way off topic, so sorry if that was may fault at all.
I was originally curious about the use of the kilt by some early 20th century nationalist leaders in Ireland. Being a nationalist myself, I found it strange that I had only just discovered this, even thought studied Irish history at school.
I don't think Pearse and any followers felt that their was any historical or cultural link to the kilt, and Pearse said as much himself. They were not trying to find a link in history as justification.

And let's not forget Eamonn Ceannt, who was married in a kilt and had a Papal audience in the kilt and, like Pearse was an important part of history as a signatory of the proclamation of the republic. The railway station in Galway is named for him as well as a park in Dublin http://www.dublincity.ie/RECREATIONA...eanntPark.aspx

[CMcG]

I think this discussion has gone way off topic, so sorry if that was may fault at all.
I was originally curious about the use of the kilt by some early 20th century nationalist leaders in Ireland. Being a nationalist myself, I found it strange that I had only just discovered this, even thought studied Irish history at school.
I don't think Pearse and any followers felt that their was any historical or cultural link to the kilt, and Pearse said as much himself. They were not trying to find a link in history as justification.

Veering off course again were we? OK, let's try and loop back again.

The late 19th century Gaelic revival sought to sustain, enhance, and/or reconstruct culture that had suffered the brunt of Anglicization. This was especially geared towards language and sport, but also music, literature, and mythology. As part of this, the kilt was eventually suggested as attire because the Highland Gaels were thought to have maintained more of the culture than the Irish. It was imagined that perhaps the Irish Gaels would also have developed something like the kilt if they had been less thoroughly colonized.

I think there was probably a lot of influence from how fashionable Highland attire had become under Victorian Romanticism, along with a good dollop of myth and legend. This is where Pearse suggested the kilt was not authentic (read: historically accurate) attire but that it was noble and suited their cause. Perhaps there was also a symbolic association between the kilt as the attire of Highlanders who had fought the English at Culloden, and the push towards Irish independence.

This is just my thinking, so I don't have sources to support it. Nonetheless, it all seems reasonable to me for people wishing to adopt a form of cultural attire. The early Irish nationalists chose to imitate their nearest neighbour, who shared a similar language. It also seems reasonable for people not to want to bother; just as most Irish people don't wear kilts, there are apparently lots of Scots -- in Scotland -- who don't wear them either.

[Gael Ridire]

To all sorry if my previous post led off topic, in my mind I wasn't but then it was early morning . . .

I remember reading an article over a decade ago by the Unicorn Pursuviant, Mr Campbell, talking about the difference between modern tartan and old tartan is the history behind them. However, a hundred years from now many of those modern tartans will have a history too.

I'm thankful to all in educating me about the kilt in Ireland and how it didn't catch on, and now I understand why. The lack of history wearing it among the people. I knew of the search and deciding on the kilt, but not the whole story. So the Irish have adopted the kilt in the last 15 yrs, and mostly by the diaspora. It isn't strange to me, but then I'm part of the diaspora, and one who takes from this culture and from that culture, I guess. I was deeply affected one night 30 yrs ago walking on the Ginza in Tokyo, where I spied a 40 something man with his wife wearing traditional Japanese dress. It was stunning! All around were people wearing modern clothing, during the day this man probably went to work in a three piece pinstripe suit carrying a briefcase. He had reached back in time and took hold of what he felt was important, brought it down to today in the hopes that it would continue into tomorrow. Now granted it was all Japanese culture, but I support the idea Mr. Kernow from Cornwall espoused, that "hey I'm a Gael!," to the world, and wearing the kilt is the outward sign, because the world knows that the kilt is Gaelic/Celtic.

Years ago while driving down a city street, my children saw a man in a plaid shirt, not tartan. They exclaimed, "Look he's Scottish!" They associated tartan with being Scottish. Today they know different.

Okay, so the "Irish kilt" is not worn by the native Irish, oops, and mostly the diaspora has wrongly associated it to the Emerald Isle. Again I state this is evolution of the culture. The Irish diaspora are looking for something, many have found part of the answer in wearing the kilt, as an outward sign. True most have no idea of how the Irish kilt evolved, sadly most don't care. I'm one who is all for the truth in history, and for the romantic stuff to be revealed for what it is, fluff covered hype. A hundred years from now the Irish kilt will probably be part of the "ancient traditions." That's evolution, or as one article stated, the creation of an imagined culture which will be perceived as history.

Jock and MacSpadger, I appreciated your view points and insights. CMDcg I also appreciate you comments. It really is strange how the diaspora across the pond views one thing and the natives of Ireland/Scotland stair in bewilderment wondering where do we get such stuff. I think what is needed is to educate all about the Irish kilt and its origin & history. Our misguided good intentions though do help your economy in our drive for all things "Celtic." So many of the diaspora searching for something, and for some it is finding a ground in the so called "clan." Instead of being alone, or just a number, they feel that they belong to something bigger.


“In all of us there is a hunger marrow deep to know our heritage - to know who we are and where we came from. Without this enriching knowledge there is a hallow yearning. No matter what our attainments in life, there is still a vacuum, an emptiness, and the most disquieting loneliness.”

Alex Haley: author of ROOTS

As one person on this site once stated that imitation is the best form of flattery, i.e. the "Celtic" nations adopting the kilt of the Scots. Lets face it, it appears to be you Highlanders fault in the first place for creating such an handsome garment.

[MacSpadger]

The late 19th century Gaelic revival sought to sustain, enhance, and/or reconstruct culture that had suffered the brunt of Anglicization. This was especially geared towards language and sport, but also music, literature, and mythology. As part of this, the kilt was eventually suggested as attire because the Highland Gaels were thought to have maintained more of the culture than the Irish. It was imagined that perhaps the Irish Gaels would also have developed something like the kilt if they had been less thoroughly colonized.

I think there was probably a lot of influence from how fashionable Highland attire had become under Victorian Romanticism, along with a good dollop of myth and legend. This is where Pearse suggested the kilt was not authentic (read: historically accurate) attire but that it was noble and suited their cause. Perhaps there was also a symbolic association between the kilt as the attire of Highlanders who had fought the English at Culloden, and the push towards Irish independence.

This is pretty much the whole story of the kilt and Irish nationalism summed up in two paragraphs. Sadly also emphasising the use of the words "imagined", "perhaps", suggested", etc.

As is still the case today, the actual circumstances of Culloden were misunderstood. No-one fought "The English". There were more Scots on the Hanoverian side than on the Jacobite and possibly more Highlanders. Many Jacobites were English. Likewise, not all Highlanders were Jacobites, the Campbells, Grants of Glenmoriston, MacLeods of Rassay and MacLeods of MacLeod, among others, supported the Hanoverians, and their regiments and pipers were present in the Hanoverian ranks, including the famous Donald Ban MacCrimmon/Dòmnhull Bàn MacCruimein, piper to the the chief of Clan MacLeod. MacCrimmon was captured by the Jacobites at the Battle of Inverurie, December 23, 1745. He was released after the Jacobite pipers allegedley went on strike while he was held prisoner. He was killed on February 18, 1746 at the so called Rout of Moy, while serving under John Campbell, 4th Earl of Loudoun. There were also Irish Catholic regiments fighting for the Hanoverians. Yes, it is confusing.

Have some sympathy for those who are baffled by seemingly Scottish or Irish traditions in the US, I'm sure there are many Americans or Canadians who would be confused by traditions in Ireland or Scotland if they were examined up close, for instance, Celtic vs Rangers football matches held in Glasgow. The teams run on, with players of all creeds and colours from all over the globe, and the Rangers fans wave the Union flag of Great Britain, while singing the National Anthem of England and waving portraits of the Queen, who is of German descent. Rangers diehards will carry banners or even tattoos of William of Orange, who was a Dutchman who sat on the throne of England and fought the Battle of the Boyne in Ireland using a "British" army that included English, Scottish, Irish and German troops, as well as Dutch and Fresian mercenaries. The Celtic fans retaliate by waving Irish flags and singing Irish rebel songs, yet they count themselves as Scottish and have never been to Ireland. I have known guys to wave placards and banners featuring the Pope, who is German and lives in a well known district near Rome, Italy. You can't get much more traditional Scottish than that!

As an aside, I worked for a TV company that broadcast a programme saying William of Orange was probably a homosexual. An irate Glasgow Rangers fan phoned in, saying, "Prince William of Orange could not possibly have been a homosexual, as I have a tattoo of him on my chest". I just thought it was funny at the time, and I'd share it with you.

[Blackrose87]

Although not specifically related to the kilt itself, I thought anyone I. The area might be interested that there will be a talk James Connolly's influence in Scotland and Ireland this Thursday at 7pm in St. Augustine's church on George IV bridge, Edinburgh.

The will also be a lot of talks, music and storytelling looking into Irish issues in Scotland as part of Fleadh Dhun Eideann this week.

[CMcG]

This is pretty much the whole story of the kilt and Irish nationalism summed up in two paragraphs. Sadly also emphasising the use of the words "imagined", "perhaps", suggested", etc.

Yes! I got it right

Have some sympathy for those who are baffled by seemingly Scottish or Irish traditions in the US, I'm sure there are many Americans or Canadians who would be confused by traditions in Ireland or Scotland if they were examined up close, for instance, Celtic vs Rangers football matches held in Glasgow.

Quite baffling indeed That is a perfect example of the flexibility of post-modern transnational identities. The best part, is that it isn't confusing at all to the people in question

[Blackrose87]

I'm sure there are many Americans or Canadians who would be confused by traditions in Ireland or Scotland if they were examined up close, for instance, Celtic vs Rangers football matches held in Glasgow.

I always felt that the Scottish and Irish diaspora have their own culture and traditions, which may have some roots in the original countries their ancestors may have come from.
But in my experience, a lot of them have little interest in the actual customs of modern day Scotland or Ireland. Many would prefer to hold on to their own idea of the culture, whether right or wrong. And fair play to them, a lot of ther families have been living somewhere else for entries now, so it is only natural tat they have developed their own traditions and distanced themselves from the natives of Scotland and Ireland.

[CMcG]

CMDcg I also appreciate you comments.

I assume you meant me... sláinte!

I always felt that the Scottish and Irish diaspora have their own culture and traditions, which may have some roots in the original countries their ancestors may have come from.
But in my experience, a lot of them have little interest in the actual customs of modern day Scotland or Ireland. Many would prefer to hold on to their own idea of the culture, whether right or wrong. And fair play to them, a lot of ther families have been living somewhere else for entries now, so it is only natural tat they have developed their own traditions and distanced themselves from the natives of Scotland and Ireland.

Some people have more immediate connections or struggle harder to reconnect to the homeland than others and will try to follow the current customs of the old country. After a longer separation though, you're right that diasporas tend to go in one of two directions: preserving things that the native land has discarded or developing their own traditions that evolve in relation to their new location. Kilt wearing can be viewed as an example of the former, while St. Pat's parades and drinking would be the latter.

As another, non-kilt example, people still practice bataireacht in Canada, which has apparently long-since ceased in Ireland. My teacher is Glen Doyle, whose family brought their style over to Newfoundland in the 1800s. He is the first in his line to teach outside the family and there has actually been some interest from folks in Ireland to bring Irish stick-fighting back over.

Despite the differences between those at home and abroad, the Irish President's St. Pat's message is wonderfully inclusive of Irishness in all its manifestations. He specifically includes the diaspora and doesn't mention their confounding propensity for kilt wearing
http://www.president.ie/index.php?se...=1082&lang=eng

As for kilts, I just read John Hart's nicely balanced statement on the subject. He is the proprietor of Keltoi, which is one of our sponsors and is also a Canadian who was born in Ireland:
http://www.gaelicclothing.com/irishkilts.htm