More on Septs

[MacSpadger]

I'd started a thread earlier about the origins of Scottish clan septs, as they are understood today. I’ve been thinking again about this clan and sept business owing to reading some papers that, although very old, are new to me.
As I’ve said before, when I was very young, I mean when I was around 5 or 6, I was told that my surname meant I was part of a sept of MacDonnell of Glengarry. In most books about septs my family name is listed as a sept of MacDonnell of Glengarry, sure enough.

When I was 10, however, I changed schools and began to learn and speak Gaelic as part of the curriculum. There, while in Gaelic class, I was known as Adhamh MacAlasdair. I have since been addressed in other Gaelic groups as MacAlisdair. This got me wondering why my surname, Sanderson, was not considered a MacAlisdair/MacAlister name instead of MacDonnell.

So, where does the "sept" biz come from? Why have I been wearing a tartan for over 40 years that I might not have any real connection to?

I got in contact with the clan chief of the MacDonells of Glengarry and he was very friendly indeed. He wrote back that the clan historian, Norman H MacDonald, was adamant that Sanderson was one of the principal septs. He also gave full rights and permissions to wear any related tartans and accoutrements, etc. Very pleasant man, doon here they’d call him a decent chap.

I was looking at some papers later on an unrelated matter and found some writings by a member of the Gordon Fencibles on the mental problems of clan chief Alasdair MacDonell of Glengarry in 1800. Glengarry was possibly schizophrenic or bipolar by today’s standards. He did many bizarre things which I won’t go into here, but one was to severely beat a servant. The servant was also called Alasdair MacDonell from Glengarry, but the writing showed he was called Sanders to avoid confusion with the chief. Later papers from a court case name him as Alasdair MacDonell from Glengarry, known as Saunders. From here it’s fairly easy to imagine that a Sanderson/Saunderson name might have sprung, but we are talking 1800, which is comparatively recently in historical terms, and the servant was referred to verbally as Sanders/Saunders, but in writing was still called Alasdair MacDonell from Glengarry. Confusing.

A couple of weeks later I was looking at court records from the inquest after the Massacre of Glencoe. These records are important because the names of the ill fated MacDonald clan are listed.
Members of the Clan MacDonald of Glencoe included MacAlasdair, MacEanruig, (MacHenry/ Henderson), MacStarken, Robertson, Rankin, Don, Matheson, Kennedy, MacIntyre and several other common Scottish names. All of these people counted themselves as Glencoe people with their chief/laird being Alastair Maclain, 12th Chief of Glencoe. Yet if you were to enter these names into a modern list of “septs” there would be no indication of this.

The troops who committed the atrocity were not all Campbells, again they have a diverse range of common Scottish surnames.

My mother’s maiden name is Gill and I have been succesfull in tracing my branch of the Gills back to the 1600’s. Two of them fought at Culloden in Gordon of Glenbucket's regiment. They are both listed as tenants of the Duke of Gordon, so no doubt would have been considered part of Clan Gordon, yet post Victorian books seem to list Gill as a sept of the Clan MacDonald. All this seems academic as this line of Gills is descended from a man who was called Grigor M’Grigor but changed his surname to Gill, (or became known as Gill), when he settled around Banff in the 1600’s and became a stonemason. That’s my G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-Grandfather, and he could possibly have been an outlawed MacGregor, hence the arrival in a new area and the name change. But according to current lists of Septs, he would have been a MacDonald.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the term sept is entirely misleading. People of any name, (both Highland and Lowland, as we can see from the Glencoe records), could end up in any clan depending entirely on location and circumstance.
In the 1930's book Clans, Septs & Regiments of the Scottish Highlands Thomas Innes says “septs must be regarded as a rather wonderful effort of imagination” and “The very word ‘sept’ is delusive and no serious attention can now be attached to Skene’s theories about ‘septs”.

Here he means Dr. W. F. Skene's hugely influential book, The Highlanders of Scotland or his later work, Celtic Scotland. These are full of invention/crap, (take your pick).

I suppose a modern day analogy would be simply living in a town. If you have parents who were born and raised in Greentown, but then move to Bluetown where you are born and raised, that does not make you a Greentownian. Likewise for your offspring if you then move to Browntown or Redtown to raise them.
The whole concept of septs seem fluid, flexible and entirely dictated to by circumstance, and I can’t see any way that it can be contained in a fixed list of names.

[Jock Scot]

I think that Thomas Innes describes the situation rather well and I have always thought this way. I think it is one of the reasons that the Scots don't ask about other people's tartans, they know many of the replies will be nothing but boring hogwash.

[MacSpadger]

I think that Thomas Innes describes the situation rather well and I have always thought this way.

I have been trying to find any examples of "septs" before the 1860's - 1870's with zero results. The whole thing appears to have been cooked up by Skene and another Aberdonian, James Logan, at the behest of the Highland Society of London.
Logan was a typical "romantic" Victorian writer, author of "The Scottish Gael", whose brief was to provide an "ancient" pedigree for the Highland Clans, or rather how the Victorians saw, or wanted to see, it, which was going back into the days of druids and prehistory.
Similarly there is no mention of septs in Irish history until their "Celtic Revival". I would think that the chief of your clan would have been your landlord, and "bonds of man-rent" were more important than surnames. Certainly papers at Huntly show my Gill ancestors to have been under bonds of man-rent to John Gordon, Laird of Glenbucket, which is probably why they ended up in the regiment. Other people who looked up to Gordon of Glenbucket had typical Aberdeenshire names such as Burnett, Innes and even a piper named Carr. (You can tell they were Aberdeenshire men from the writings of a Derby war correspondent: Their dialect seemed to me as if an herd of Hottentots, wild monkeys in a desart, or vagrant gypsies had been jabbering, screaming, and howling together ; and really this jargon of speech was very properly suited to such a sett of banditti.
)
Besides, Clan is taken from a Gaelic word, sept is decidedly English, why would the Gaels of Scotland or Ireland suddenly start using one English word to describe a vital part of their heritage?

I think it is one of the reasons that the Scots don't ask about other people's tartans, they know many of the replies will be nothing but boring hogwash.

Exactly!
I used to wear a Gordon kilt and it's different when people ask you if you have been in the regiment. I had a bit of an inferiority complex having only ever been a territorial, despite coming from a family with 5 generations of Gordon servicemen. Thinking about it now, I probably would have more claim to wearing a Gordon kilt than any sept association.

The older I get, the more I think just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel aboot honouring some lang deid' cheil' fah' widnae' ken ye onywie, and even if he did, he widnae' cross o'er the road tae' gie' ye' the time o' day.

[Chas]

I agree with you, MacSpadger. The problem is human nature - people want to know.

I run a tent at the Harpenden Highland Games every year. It is mainly an advertising show piece for XMarks. One of the hooks I have to get people to come in is "Find out what your clan is". I have an alphabetical list of over 30,000 names and the clans that they are supposed to be associated with. It is nothing special, just a list that I have trawled from the internet; mainly clan sites.

The thing is, from the 10:00 start till the 16:00 finish, there are always queues. People are desperate to know. Last year, I took it up to the Hawick Games. I must admit, I had some fear and trepidation. It was after all a cheek, going to Scotland to talk to Scots about the right way to wear a kilt. I need not have worried - the same hunger was there. Young and old, they all wanted to know.

It might very well all be crap, but it seems to be a glue-like crap that binds so many lives together.

Regards

Chas

[MacSpadger]

It might very well all be crap, but it seems to be a glue-like crap that binds so many lives together.

Regards

Chas

Chas, that really did make me laugh out loud!

[creagdhubh]

According to my Chief, Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, TD, as well as Clan Macpherson Chieftains, armigers, our clan sennachie, guardians and the majority of Macpherson clansmen and clanswomen, the word 'sept' does not exist within the confines and organisation of our clan, and never has. Instead, we refer to divisions or associations within the Clan Macpherson as 'associated families of the Clan Macpherson' and not 'septs of the Clan Macpherson.'

Cluny, as well as his predecessors, has always maintained that the word sept is an Irish Gaelic word meaning a 'clan' or 'family' and in Scottish Gaelic, clann translates to 'children,' so it may be correct in saying that there are indeed some degrees of separation between the use of 'clan' and 'sept,' especially from clan to clan. And simply how each chief wishes to designate and call the smaller families that have long/traditionally associated with a larger Highland clan for a place to live as tennants; eventually becoming extremely loyal to their chief, regardless of having a different surname, ultimately gaining the protection of the clan, yet were also called to arms for battle with neighboring clans, the English, etc.

There is no such thing as a 'sept' list within the Clan Macpherson Association, rather there is a list of associated families approved by our Chief. However, Cluny has stated that the Clan Macpherson may be considered a 'sept' of the Clan Chattan Confederation, since the Clan Chattan is a confederacy composed and structured by various Highland clans located throughout Inverness-shire and surrounding areas. The Clan Macpherson (along with the Clan Mackintosh) is a leading Highland clan within the Clan Chattan Confederation.

Black's, Surnames of Scotland is an excellent resource for both Highland and Lowland surnames, as well as many common and uncommon 'associated' names.

Cheers,

[MacSpadger]

Cluny has always maintained that the word sept is an Irish Gaelic word meaning 'clan' or 'family'

Interesting. My dictionary has it as an English word derived from the Latin sept or saeptum, which sounds very un-Gaelic.

[Blackrose87]

Cluny has always maintained that the word sept is an Irish Gaelic word meaning 'clan' or 'family' and in Scottish Gaelic, clan translates to 'children,'

I'm not too sure about that. In Irish family is 'teaghlach', and children is 'clann'. Although clann can be used for family as well.
Sometimes 'cúram' is used for family or children (or business, or responsibilities)

But I dont think sept is used, at least not in modern Gaeilge. I had a check in my dictionary to be sure, and it's not in there.

[creagdhubh]

I'm not too sure about that. In Irish family is 'teaghlach', and children is 'clann'. Although clann can be used for family as well.
Sometimes 'cúram' is used for family or children (or business, or responsibilities)

But I done think sept is used, at least not in modern Gaeilge. I had a check in my dictionary to be sure, and it's not in there.

I suppose every person has their own traditions, beliefs, perspective and interpretations on the matter, as this is not the first time confusion in regards to the 'whole sept issue' as come up. And I'm really not one to have a debate with my Chief, he is a retired High Court Judge! Hahaha!

Cluny and I in 2007.


Cheers,

[CMcG]

...
So, where does the "sept" biz come from?

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, sept comes into the English language from French and before that, from Latin. The first documented use was in 1517. Sept refers to a division of a nation, tribe, or clan, and was originally used in reference to Ireland.

...
Why have I been wearing a tartan for over 40 years that I might not have any real connection to?

I suppose the question here is what would you call a real connection? If there is a tartan specific to one's surname, that's easy enough. For a sept connection, one could do an extensive genealogy to see whether or not their family name actually came from, or had any association with, the clan that a tartan represents. Or you could skip all that and just join the clan association/society, ask for permission from the chief, etc.

As I understand it though, the history of Scottish tartans being recorded, mass produced, and associated with specific clans goes back only as far as the 19th century. This whole business of different names (septs) being associated with one tartan under the banner of a clan seems fine to me given the constructed nature of the whole system to begin with. On a basic level, just going with what the tartan industry says is your clan/sept sett is actually quite "traditional."

If you want an unassailable link, you can design and register your own, or wear a district tartan