More on Septs

[McElmurry]

It all belongs to the same clan anyways, right? Well, I won't say for every clan or sept, but speaking for my own experience my family is a Gillmore, which is a "sept" of Morrison. I'll happily wear Morrison tartans and not be bothered with it. Don't need to invent a Gilmore tartan.

I think septs were created to help distinguish what names go with whatever clan. That's what I can figure any how. Also a marketing ploy, but I'm not going to get into that. Maybe it's to put a connection to whatever clan they are branched off of? I'm not saying people look for legitimacy but a grasp on clan connection...maybe?

An example in the case of Morrison would be my middle name, Murray. If I went in search of a Scottish clan associated with Murray I could end up with Murray of Atholl or Morrison, to name two. It is only because I know my middle name was shortened from McElmurry that Morrison becomes the more obvious choice. This is particularly true of Morrison because the Lord Lyon named a chief over the entire name regardless of origin.

Note that I started by saying “if I went in search of a Scottish clan association”. Variations on the name Servant of Mary or Son of Servant of Mary have been used in the Gaelic speaking world for 1000 years, from Waterford to the Butt of Lewis and points in between. There is very likely more than one originator of the name and the originator on my line could have begun his life on the Island of Ireland, in Ulster, in the Six Counties, in Scotland, on the Isle of Mann, or somewhere else. There is never complete certainty and each person has to decide for themselves when they have enough information to make a decision. So, for me, Morrison it is.

[Singlemalt]

I agree with MacSpadger on this one. I have said before I just don't get the attraction to the "new clan" system. I have one of those pretty plain, common Scottish surnames, Thomson. In fact I just read that it is the seventh most common surname in Scotland. If you check the "Sept" lists we could be members of Campbell, MacIntosh, MacTavish and probably many more. There is even a fairly new Clan Thom(p)son. An internet search will reveal some rather nasty internet bickering between them all about who has claim to us.

My Grandfather was born in Scotland 1879, his family from Inverness-shire as far as we know back to the dawn of time. He emigrated to Canada in 1919. He was very proud of his family, and his Scottish and Highland roots. He never mentioned any "Clan" connection that he was aware of. I too have read as much history on the subject as I can and have come to the conclusion it is mostly myth. However, we do have to recognize that myths have a lot of power if you choose to invest in them.

[figheadair]

Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.

Wilsons began in the 1760s as was mentioned in a later text. The 1819 KPB was never published, it was an in-house production aide. The revised edition of my book on the 1819 KPB has just gone off to the printer .

[MacSpadger]

Wilsons began in the 1860s as was mentioned in a later text. The 1819 KPB was never published, it was an in-house production aide. The revised edition of my book on the 1819 KPB has just gone off to the printer .

Interesting. The Scottish tartans authority seem to imply a much earlier start.

[MacRob]

Sept is an Irish word meaning family. It is used frequently prior to the mid-19th c. but before that time nobody considered that there was or should be a list of family names related to the Clan or, more correctly, the Clan chief. The attempt to formalize a list of family names associated with Clans is most likely the result of a desire by early Scottish tartan merchants to widen their customer base. Fact is, when the Clans were in their heyday, everyone knew who they were and what their association was with their particular Clan.

Many Clans, thru genealogical work, have established lists of "related family names" (a much better term) historically associated with the Clan. Much of this comes from public records although tradition is also important. Sir Crispin Agnew, an officer of the Lyon Court, wrote a very interesting piece on the definition of a "sept" back in 2001. It is available online by googling his name. I think it lives on the Internet in Electric Scotland's web site.

I would not disregard the association of Clans with families bearing surnames other than that of the Chief. There is ample evidence and historic precedent for the connection between many Clans and the surnames on their "sept lists".

[Blackrose87]

Sept is an Irish word meaning family.

I don't know where this idea originated, but as far as I can tell sept is not a gaeilge word.
It seems to be an English word, derived from Latin to describe Irish families. But it is not Irish.

The Irish for family is clann or teaghlach

[ctbuchanan]

It all belongs to the same clan anyways, right? Well, I won't say for every clan or sept, but speaking for my own experience my family is a Gillmore, which is a "sept" of Morrison. I'll happily wear Morrison tartans and not be bothered with it. Don't need to invent a Gilmore tartan.

I think septs were created to help distinguish what names go with whatever clan. That's what I can figure any how. Also a marketing ploy, but I'm not going to get into that. Maybe it's to put a connection to whatever clan they are branched off of? I'm not saying people look for legitimacy but a grasp on clan connection...maybe?

But to add to the confusion the Morrison's of Perthshire are specifically mentioned as a sept of the Clan Buchanan. But how a Morrison family living here in the USA for, say, 200 years is supposed to know his family came from Perthshire I'll never know. So I just send all the Morrisons over to the Clan Morrison tent.

[O'Callaghan]

Yes, I have the OED and it says "Occas. used by anthropologists (after Sir H. Maine, Early Hist. Institutions, 1875) for a clan consisting of those who are, or at least are believed to be, descendants of a common ancestor", so the 1875 date fits in exactly with my earlier posts about the concept coming into use during this time.



I've done all that, but may be in the minority here.

In truth, I strongly suspect this may be nearer to how it was done than any family ties.


Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.


I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

Regarding Wilson's, it was the 1780s, and their tartans originally had numbers, not names, only later superceded, usually by the surnames of people who had ordered them!! Now, not every Scots clan tartan began that way, but a large number did. When King George called the clan chiefs to London in 1822, I think it was, he asked them to wear their clan tartans, and many of them are said to have looked in Wilson's catalogue to find out what their tartan was, LOL!

Some other clan tartans originated in a book faked by the Allen brothers from Surrey in England, masquerading under the surname Sobieski and claiming descent from Bonny Prince Charlie via the Polish Count Sobieski.

After you eliminate the 'Sobieski' brothers and Wilson's catalogue, there are estimated to about one to two dozen clan tartans having an older and more authentic origin, out of a total of about 200.

[McElmurry]

But to add to the confusion the Morrison's of Perthshire are specifically mentioned as a sept of the Clan Buchanan. But how a Morrison family living here in the USA for, say, 200 years is supposed to know his family came from Perthshire I'll never know. So I just send all the Morrisons over to the Clan Morrison tent.

According to the 1965 Grant of Arms, Dr. John Morrison was recognized Chief of the Clan and whole name Morrison. It was further recognized that not all Morrisons were related and Lord Margadale was recognized as an Area Chief in the Strathclyde Area. Other Area Chiefs may be recognized. So you can't go wrong sending folks to the Morrison tent. If a person knows they are somehow related or connected to the Buchanans then that’s another matter.

Here is a link to the Grant of Arms

http://cmsna.x10hosting.com/

[MacSpadger]

But to add to the confusion the Morrison's of Perthshire are specifically mentioned as a sept of the Clan Buchanan. But how a Morrison family living here in the USA for, say, 200 years is supposed to know his family came from Perthshire I'll never know. So I just send all the Morrisons over to the Clan Morrison tent.

This is exactly the kind of thing that got me pondering. I have 5 separate direct ancestors (so far!), that have either Morrison or Morison spellings. They were living in Buchan and Banff in the 1700s and 1800's, not Perthshire ot the Western isles. But there again, Morrison is a very common name, simply meaning "son of Maurice", there are many English families with the surname Morrison who have no Scottish connections at all, in fact under the old spelling Moryson it is a very old English name that arrived with William the Conqueror. It's been pointed out that there were Morysons in Ireland, as Sir Richard Moryson was the Vice-President of Munster, but Moryson was born in England to an old English family, and he returned to England to live out his retirement and die. His son Francis emigrated from England in the 1600's and became Governor of Virginia. Two of his sons, Richard and Robert, emigrated to Virginia too.

So, hypothetically, some Virginian Morrisons could go to a USA highland games and see information that might make them think they were of Gaelic Highland extract, and buy some kilts, etc, while in fact it is the blood of Normans, Vikings, Angles and Saxons that courses through their veins.

I do see this kind of thing happening a lot. Even at piping competitions that I help run, we get American tourists come in on a fairly regular basis, (and by that I mean maybe 2 to 4 a day), saying "my surname is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, what tartan am I entitled to wear". If that question gets asked at a piping competition, I can only imagine that it gets asked far more frequently at a tartan shop.

Even if someone has researched their family tree thoroughly, the name might have no connection at all with any clan link. As I pointed out earlier, names of members of the MacDonald of Glencoe clan included MacAlasdair, MacEanruig, (MacHenry/ Henderson), MacStarken, Robertson, Rankin, Don, Matheson, Kennedy, MacIntyre and several other common Scottish names. Surname doesn't come into it.
The Gaelic naming system is also ignored, where the children do/did not inherit the family name, but only their father's. The chief of the MacDonalds of Glencoe, for example, was known as Alasdair Maclain, not Alasdair MacDonald.
My proper name would be Adhamh MacGhabhain mic Alasdair, my father was Gabhran MacAdhamh mic Alasdair, as his father had the same name forename as me, Adhamh, but had the patronymic MacTeàrlaidh as his father was Teàrlaidh, so he was Adhamh MacTeàrlaidh, etc. Explain that with septs, if you will

Looking at my own personal history records, on my Mother's side I have ancestors who paid rent rolls to Gordons, Skenes, Forbes and Grants, so no doubt would have counted as members of those clans. That's certainly how at least two of them ended up on Drumossie Moor one April morning in 1746. However, no name links them with any of the banners they fought under.

In more recent times both of my Grandparents, (my Father's parents) worked for the Lord Lyon on his estate in Perthshire. They worked for him, lived in a cottage provided for him, my Grandad worked his land and ploughed his fields, my Granny was "in service" to him. At the time the Lord Lyon was Sir Francis Grant, would that have made my Grandparents part of Clan Grant? Some would say yes, under the old "bond of man-rent".

Ultimately I think the whole "sept" business could be a bit of harmless fun, (as many in Scotland view the whole business of kilt wearing/Clan membership, to be honest), but I meet many who take the whole thing as if it is gospel truth and it does kind of sadden me on two levels:
1. People are being taken advantage of.
2. People are happy to be taken advantage of just so long as it gives them a sense of belonging to something that they want to be part of, for whatever personal reasons they may have.

But that's just human nature, I guess. We are all still tribal somewhere deep within ourselves. We demonstrate this in many different ways, including joining forums like this where the thing that unites is is a bittie of coloured cloth we buckle round our waists.

Cheers to you all.