Too Traditional?

[HenryT]

Henry, just for the sake of conversation, could you give an example of traditional Highland attire (as opposed to historical Highland attire) that crosses the line from acceptable to caricature?

I, like, Justice Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio, can only say, "I know it when I see it". Have you not ever seen one that has gone over the top?

[Nick the DSM]

I think it matters in the context of the situation or event.

In my opinion and observation, people on here seem to connect traditional with formal or super snazzy dressing. So there would be a degree of formality (that is a word, right? Feel like Harding...). If it's just a casual outing, being "too traditional" would mean dressing to the nines with doublet and all. That's what I understand at least.

Just trying to add to the discussion.

[MacMillans son]

I think I understand the concept of too traditional, at least in areas where there is not a tradition. Allow me to explain, here in California there is not a a tradition of kilt wearing (except at Scottish themed events). If I were to wear a kilt "outfit" that had mismatched patterns, with zero color coordination, coupled with a diced balmoral, and carrying a cromach I would consider that too traditional for typical daywear, because it would be interpreted here as someone in a Scottish costume who had really poor training on how to dress. It would not be appreciated as traditional, but rather, as weird because there would not be enough elements that were consistent with the typical American understanding of how clothing should look. The mismatched patterns, non-coordinated colors, impractical headwear, and a shepherd staff would be too far from the norm even for those who have seen, and appreciate, a man in a kilt.

However, if I were to dress in a traditional wool tartan kilt, with color coordinated tweed day wear jacket, solid light colored shirt, solid or quiet patterned tie with color coordinated hose, people, including myself, can appreciate the difference of a man in a kilt while not being shocked by fashion practices inconsistent with what they would typically expect to see on this side of the Atlantic.

So, I guess I disagree with some of my esteemed friends here, but I am comfortable wearing what I think looks best, even if it is not considered completely traditional.

And, I learned everything I know about kilt wearing right here, so if I'm doing it wrong it's all your fault!!!

[Dale Seago]

I think I understand the concept of too traditional, at least in areas where there is not a tradition. Allow me to explain. . .

***

[ThistleDown]

Henry, just for the sake of conversation, could you give an example of traditional Highland attire (as opposed to historical Highland attire) that crosses the line from acceptable to caricature?

Rathdown, could Sir Harry have overstepped traditionally acceptable into caricature in the following? Or not. If so, how?

[ThistleDown]

I think I understand the concept of too traditional, at least in areas where there is not a tradition. Allow me to explain, here in California there is not a a tradition of kilt wearing (except at Scottish themed events). If I were to wear a kilt "outfit" that had mismatched patterns, with zero color coordination, coupled with a diced balmoral, and carrying a cromach I would consider that too traditional for typical daywear, because it would be interpreted here as someone in a Scottish costume who had really poor training on how to dress. It would not be appreciated as traditional, but rather, as weird because there would not be enough elements that were consistent with the typical American understanding of how clothing should look. The mismatched patterns, non-coordinated colors, impractical headwear, and a shepherd staff would be too far from the norm even for those who have seen, and appreciate, a man in a kilt.

However, if I were to dress in a traditional wool tartan kilt, with color coordinated tweed day wear jacket, solid light colored shirt, solid or quiet patterned tie with color coordinated hose, people, including myself, can appreciate the difference of a man in a kilt while not being shocked by fashion practices inconsistent with what they would typically expect to see on this side of the Atlantic.

So, I guess I disagree with some of my esteemed friends here, but I am comfortable wearing what I think looks best, even if it is not considered completely traditional.

And, I learned everything I know about kilt wearing right here, so if I'm doing it wrong it's all your fault!!!

I'm going to expose a guinea pig here, but which of these is completely traditional in CA MacMillan's son?

[Jock Scot]

There is another problem, one of perception. Now one way or another I have seen a few kilts and variations of style in my time and I know what looks right at a glance. Now I might be at the local shop buying a newspaper and Ian Mac----- might be in there too, dressed to the nines in his kilt attire, he will look completely out of place, overdressed call it what you will, where he is. He will look completely out of place walking through town, but he won't when he arrives at the local show to lead the band. I know and understand that he popped into the shop for a box of matches whilst on the way somewhere else, many a visitor won't.Wrong assumptions are often made by the unwary from studying pictures too.

I see many pictures here of members being ever so daring in breaking the traditional mould------so they think. In fact, on many occasions the traditionalists have been doing that for decades. I think the most common mistake that many new to kilt wearing make, is that they tend to over-dress. Wearing a fly plaid when its not necessary(is it ever, in civilian wear) is probably the most common, wearing a formal argyll when a tweed one is appropriate is another and wearing a tweed jacket where a pullover or shirt sleeves may have been a more sensible choice.

[CMcG]

...
As far as the Lion Dance is concerned, it sounds to me as if the choreographer wanted a different interpretation of this dance than you were providing-- I doubt it had anything to do with your not being Chinese. Put another way, it was not so much a matter of clashing cultures as it was a difference in artistic vision.

The person who took issue to my adherence to tradition was actually just a coordinator at the event. My kung fu club was invited to perform a lion dance and they sent me to do the job. At the dress rehearsal this coordinator told me the dance was boring and asked me to do more fancy moves. I countered that this style was more traditional, she said I wasn't traditional (i.e. so why would I be doing a traditional lion dance?), and I ended the discussion by saying as a representative of my kung fu club, it wasn't up to me to change their routine; the "choreographer" (that word isn't entirely accurate when describing folk dance) was my teacher at the kung club.

Allow me to explain. There are two main types of lion dance around here: traditional Cantonese style, which is a para-liturgical exorcism/blessing ritual; and the international style, which combines the more acrobatic movements of northern lion dancing with the costuming of the Cantonese style. Many clubs do a combination of both by adding a few showy jumps into a traditional lion dance.

I'd be happy to discuss lion dance some more, but perhaps PM would be more appropriate.

Bringing this back to kilts, if this coordinator's comment had nothing to do with me being a foreigner and more to do with entertainment value, why would she tell me that I -- as a person -- am not traditional enough to do the traditional dance? I can only imagine that perhaps she thinks I'm too young to be traditional? Is there such a thing as too young to wear the kilt in the most traditional way?

I think I understand the concept of too traditional, at least in areas where there is not a tradition...

This is definitely part of what I've been thinking. Particularly where there is no deep rooted tradition of kilt-wearing, too traditional might unfortunately come off as being a costume.

Could part of it also be relative to the individual, rather than the society? That is to say, if one usually makes no effort to coordinate their colours or patterns; wears a lot of tweed, tartan, Argyle, and tattersal; always wears a necktie;and has a den full of taxidermy animals, etc., then even the most traditional, non matchy-matchy, daywear outfit (complete with eyes-in full-mask sporran) probably wouldn't look like too much.

[CMcG]

...I see many pictures here of members being ever so daring in breaking the traditional mould------so they think. In fact, on many occasions the traditionalists have been doing that for decades. I think the most common mistake that many new to kilt wearing make, is that they tend to over-dress. Wearing a fly plaid when its not necessary(is it ever, in civilian wear) is probably the most common, wearing a formal argyll when a tweed one is appropriate is another and wearing a tweed jacket where a pullover or shirt sleeves may have been a more sensible choice.

Sage advice as always, Jock!

[Guinness>water]

I thought about this a lot when I first started wearing the kilt. I wore a baseball cap with my kilt because I thought a balmoral would look very out of place, especially on me(costume idea). After a while, I figured the kilt is so non traditional in the US that what the heck "if your gonna do it, do it all out".

So I dont think you can be too traditional.
Non traditional, maybe easyer to swallow for first time see'ers(think: Dropkick Murphy)?