Too Traditional?

[Tobus]

You have used a picture of Tobus as an example. I hope he does not mind. Yes you are right, a horse hair sporran might tip the balance towards "costume" in some people's eyes. Add diced hose to the equation and the balance is starting to tip towards "costume" rather more. Add a dirk and we are, as far as I am concerned, now well into the realms of costume. Add a fly plaid held on with a large broach at the shoulder and most would agree that we are now off the traditional chart and well into costume. For me, we would have been at the costume stage at the horse hair sporran level, in fact, I would say that the those smart spats were a wee step too far in the circumstaces that they were worn. Had the ground been muddy then they would have been perfect, others may and will differ, but it does illustrate perfectly just how fine that line is. It is all to do with perception and where your experience has come from and that, more often than not, is as hard to grasp as mist blowing in the wind. Does it matter? No not really, but regardless of how unimportant we may think it is, we all have a sneaking wish to cut a dash in our own way.

Nope, don't mind at all. I actually appreciate the commentary, as I value your opinion.

My intent, when dressing that morning to go to the Highland Games, was to be very traditional and yes, even push the envelope. Knowing that virtually no one here dresses that traditionally, I knew it would stand out, and I wanted to gauge reactions. Had it not been so blazing hot, I would have worn the matching jacket, which I think gives it a better overall look:



I went back and forth on whether to wear the spats. In the end, I decided to wear them because every time I go to a Highland Games here in Texas, I end up coming home with dust/dirt and tiny bits of dead grass all stuck in my hose and shoelaces. You don't see it in that photo, but most of the grounds are dirt/gravel walkways and grassy areas, and lots of dead leaves. There was some mud too, but I stayed out of it as best I could. I wanted to see just how well the spats would keep out the dirt, and they did fine. Plus, of course, I just like the way they look and would like to see them come back into style. I actually had several people approach me with "wow - spats!" type comments. It was an experiment, of sorts, in finding that "fine line" between traditional and too traditional.

I agree that patterned hose, hair sporran, fly plaid, and all that other stuff would have been over the top.

[MacLowlife]

TWO HUNDRED REPLIES IN LESS THAN TEN DAYS. Gentlemen, I think that is a record. One thing we know- plenty of people are interested by Traditional Civilian Highland Dress and quite a few of them have shared well informed opinions on the subject. Thanks, CMcG, for starting it, and thanks, everyone for all of the great additions.

The exchange between Jock Scot and Tobus recalls Jock's earlier comment- that a photograph out of context can easily be misinterpreted. Practical explanations make sense of many things.

Tobus, you always look so severe in your pictures, it would be difficult for anyone to associate you with the overdressed grinning cartoon buffoons from the movies and music halls. I sure hope you have occasion to smile now and then, even if it doesn't show up in pictures. But I think that is a clue to some of the other pics we have seen: those candid shots of people in groups tend to show people comfortable in their own skins- and their clothes. Wearing it well has much to do with being relaxed and certain. Maybe that is why so many people choose to dress "like everybody else". Too bad we can't order a wee bag of confidence to tote in our sporrans- or rucksacks, poacher's pockets, or tucked into a sock.

[creagdhubh]

Perhaps in a rucksack?

Precisely.

Me on a walk in the Scottish Highlands (Badenoch) during the summer time. Like Dale, I too own an L.L. Bean rucksack, but not the waxed canvas/leather kind. Inside, I had a few granola bars, water, a change of socks, camera and a rain jacket. My charcoal wool-rag sweater and hiking boots featured in the photos below are from L.L. Bean too - my father got me started on the Freeport, Maine based company years ago - I love them!





Cheers,

[creagdhubh]

TWO HUNDRED REPLIES IN LESS THAN TEN DAYS. Gentlemen, I think that is a record. One thing we know- plenty of people are interested by Traditional Civilian Highland Dress and quite a few of them have shared well informed opinions on the subject. Thanks, CMcG, for starting it, and thanks, everyone for all of the great additions.

I second that! Well done, gents!!!

Cheers,

[David Thorpe]

TWO HUNDRED REPLIES IN LESS THAN TEN DAYS. Gentlemen, I think that is a record. One thing we know- plenty of people are interested by Traditional Civilian Highland Dress and quite a few of them have shared well informed opinions on the subject. Thanks, CMcG, for starting it, and thanks, everyone for all of the great additions...

Another ***. Very informative and helpful thread. Thanks to all contributors.

[opositive]

although for the most part i am a casual kilt wearer, when i want to wear a kilt in a more formal setting, i look to this site for guides posted such as "1 kilt 10 looks," the historical kilt picture thread and the like-creagdhubh also posts a lot of great examples . when i see well put together outfits with a bit of flair such as ryan ross' confirmation suit, tobus' highland games ensemble or the macpherson clan leaders , i use them as guidance. i do not want jock scot making voodoo dolls of me and sticking his extra flies in my head.

[MacSpadger]

Tobus, you always look so severe in your pictures, it would be difficult for anyone to associate you with the overdressed grinning cartoon buffoons from the movies and music halls. I sure hope you have occasion to smile now and then, even if it doesn't show up in pictures. But I think that is a clue to some of the other pics we have seen: those candid shots of people in groups tend to show people comfortable in their own skins- and their clothes. Wearing it well has much to do with being relaxed and certain. Maybe that is why so many people choose to dress "like everybody else". Too bad we can't order a wee bag of confidence to tote in our sporrans- or rucksacks, poacher's pockets, or tucked into a sock.

I think Tobus looks fine in the pic, and the severe look is very Scottish, but a couple of things would mark him out as slightly different over here. The jacket and waistcoat are cracking, very nice indeed,and I like the pocket watch, I wear one myself. The box pleat kilt is not often seen over here, at least, not in that style of wide box pleating.
The hose tops seem awfy long, but maybe that's just the camera angle. The civilian spats might cause comment, they've really been out of fashion a long time. It's odd, much of our current "traditional" wear comes from the Victorian period and has survived, but spats, which I think of Edwardian, croaked it long ago. They look alright on you, Tobus, but I don't think I'd wear them myself.

I have memories of wearing spats with No.1's, they are bluddy awkward things to get on and off and keeping them clean is a nightmare.

[creagdhubh]

I think Tobus looks fine in the pic, and the severe look is very Scottish, but a couple of things would mark him out as slightly different over here. The jacket and waistcoat are cracking, very nice indeed,and I like the pocket watch, I wear one myself. The box pleat kilt is not often seen over here, at least, not in that style of wide box pleating.
The hose tops seem awfy long, but maybe that's just the camera angle. The civilian spats might cause comment, they've really been out of fashion a long time. It's odd, much of our current "traditional" wear comes from the Victorian period and has survived, but spats, which I think of Edwardian, croaked it long ago. They look alright on you, Tobus, but I don't think I'd wear them myself.

I have memories of wearing spats with No.1's, they are bluddy awkward things to get on and off and keeping them clean is a nightmare.

I agree with your assessment of Tobus' attire. And whereas I do like the spats, I don't think I'd wear them either. I own the same style and colour of hose in which Tobus is wearing. They are the Lewis style hose made by House of Cheviot in their dark natural colour. The turnover of these style are indeed rather on the long side, however, I buy my House of Cheviot hose smaller than what I actually wear, and this seems to keep the hose well in balance; i.e. - the hose tops don't seem too long and the height of the hose is approximately 2-3 finger width beneath my knee-cap - where I like them to be.

Cheers,

[Zardoz]

My intent, when dressing that morning to go to the Highland Games, was to be very traditional and yes, even push the envelope. Knowing that virtually no one here dresses that traditionally, I knew it would stand out, and I wanted to gauge reactions. Had it not been so blazing hot, I would have worn the matching jacket, which I think gives it a better overall look

I think the "blazing hot" part is why basically no one around here dresses that traditionally! What sort of reactions did you get? Not sure which games that was, but looking at the other folks in your pic from the event it seems sunny and hot, so personally I would not have gone for the shirt and tie-waistcoat thing.

[ForresterModern]

.....
If all I had to look at for inspiration, was Internet pictures, glossy and often misleading advertising and some eye candy type pictures from the past then I have no doubt at all that I would end up dressing in a costume.Yes, no doubt at all. If on a website such as this one, someone posts a "look at me"picture with my new outfit and members post, as they still do, the "looks good", "you wear it well", "sharp my man" type comments when the outfit is a travesty of what kilt attire ought to look like, then the "costume look" is bound to be perpetuated.

Now how popular would anyone be if they pointed all this out on a "look at me" thread?Not very, I suggest. We should, but out of kindness most that know say nothing( and laugh,cry,scream,or swear into their dram in frustration) and those that don't know, say too much! Such are the problems of the Internet and the advantage of a face to face "quiet word" at a discreet moment that I and many others grew up with, is lost. So it is really not surprising that the subtleties of personal flair are difficult to grasp and explain on the Internet.

I agree with Jock here about the value of much of what responses get posted to others posting a picture of their own version of a certain level or style of dress----much is back patting and well done and all that with some gentle guidance suggestions meant to redirect a few concerns in a very pleasant and non-confrontational way. Personally, when I post a picture like that seeking real input I glaringly ask, no demand, brutally honest and helpful criticism and suggestions, preferably but not necessarily polite but not overtly denegrating (unless it is Jock, from whom I expect nothing less). And my valuation of the comments recieved is indeed tempered by my knowledge of and experience with said responder from here on the board as well as potentially in person, if that is available. Lastly as the final comment I can only repeat that an outfit can only be critiqued if the context in which it is anticipated to be worn is also conveyed--------how does this look for a wedding where everyone else is wearing....., how is this for a hot southern US summer highland games where I have to judge a pipe contest......, how is this for a solo piper in an indoor competition...., how about this for the formal black tie dinner for work...., for a casual Friday..., for a Burns supper in Dumfries..., for an out and about day while on holiday in the highlands..... SO much is context and desired outcome in that context.

Lastly, regarding spats, I cannot help but being drawn back to two things personally, first my experience wearing them as part of a high school marching band uniform in the 70's (white vinyl outside snaps over black oxfords), and second, the many dressy styles worn in the 1930's "betting salon" in the Newman and Redford movie " The Sting". In the first case they are clearly part of a uniform or costume and fitting for the situation, as they are for today's pipe bands and military, etc... in dress outfit. In the second the spats were everywhere but seemed over the top despite being period correct. Although I recognize their utility in keeping dust and dirt off the uppers of nice shoes (I am still using cotton swabs to dig imbedded dirt out of the brogueing of my brown dress brogues from the very dusty walkways and fields of the 2010 Stone Mountain Games) I personally find them over the top and a bit affectatious in almost any situation of modern semi-dress or dress wear, unless that is a specific look one is seeking to achieve for some reason. I do wear "gaiters" (full calf length "spats" designed to keep dirt, water, briars, and mud off of and out off one's hiking boots and hose whilst hiking or bushwhacking) occasionally while hiking in certain places or weather, and have worn them whilst snowshoeing and cross-country skiing in the past (none around here in Kentucky) for similar purpose regarding shedding snow. As regards highland wear, I guess spats are another thing that falls into that category of personal style (?flair?) and the "to each his own" rule applies in full. For what it is worth, I think Tobus looks grand in them. I think I would look like a 1920's bellhop in them myself.

One man's O.