Too Traditional?

[CMcG]

Another fine example of what a guy from 2012 wearing a kilt looks like, is our own Jock Scot. Hopefully he doesn't mind me reposting his pics!




Compare Jock's attire to these gentlemen, who look rather less "2012" to me. These may be extreme examples, but there are others looks that are less historical or uniform-like, but that still look too traditional or "not 2012":

[Jock Scot]

CMcG.

No worries my dear chap.

[ForresterModern]

I think that the Duke of Rothesay might have a little bit of matchy-matchy going in nearly every single one of those photos, and nary a square inch of tattersall in sight save for Maybe the one pic of him in shirtsleeves that is a bit too noisy to tell for sure.

[saxandpipes]

I think that the Duke of Rothesay might have a little bit of matchy-matchy going in nearly every single one of those photos, and nary a square inch of tattersall in sight save for Maybe the one pic of him in shirtsleeves that is a bit too noisy to tell for sure.

I don't think the Duke is matchy matchy at all. I think this is what causes confusion. Rather his accessories complement each other- and he is (always!) dressed appropriate for the setting. There is no better example to follow. (MHO)

Cheers,

Michael

[saxandpipes]

I've been following this thread keenly (although I've only just posted a reply).

My own thoughts on the matter are this:

It is not possible to be too traditional (full stop).

It is however, possible to be over or under-dressed. It is possible to be too matchy. It is possible to be too old-fashioned, too theatrical, too modern even.

The main point I'm trying to make is that many outfits/accessories might be considered traditional (in various combinations) but the problem arises when the wrong outfit or the wrong accessories are worn in the wrong situation. Example: an Argyll jacket is traditional, as is a Sheriffmuir doublet. However, there are situations where one or the other might be inappropriate (hopefully this will be obvious, although I fear it isn't) (Bearing in mind of course the lack of a RULE book!)

I wore this to a wedding in Spain last week:





(sorry for the closed eyes... bad timing)

One can see that I am wearing a glengarry, which could be considered traditional- but, would it be appropriate outside performing my duties as the piper (I was also a guest)? No. Hence, I dropped it when I dropped the pipes. The other question arises: whether or not the kilt was traditional attire for a Spanish wedding...? Well, no, it's not. But- the wedding in question was at least half Scottish, with the groom and his family being Scottish (almost all the gents kilted), and the bride being Spanish. I was asked to pipe (and wear the kilt) so it was appropriate. (On a side note, I don't have pics of the other kilted men- only the ones that were taken here by a friend- at least until the official pics come back).

Tobus and a few others have raised the excellent point that one can often be over-dressed, simply because the rest of the people around you are under-dressed. This is a tricky one, but I imagine that all that can be done in these situations is to set a good example- this is what I hope to do, not over-doing it, just attempting to let it be seen that I am doing the best I can. (At least, I try!) Also, that it's nice to pay a bit of attention to how one presents oneself. The other thing to remember is that there are simply a large number of people nowadays (particularly, although not exclusively, men) who just don't seem to care how they dress... or at least what seems to be fashionable is to dress as slovenly as possible- at least when compared with the "styles" of eras past. (Think ill-fitting jackets, underpants as an accessory! )

Basically, I think it's a question of doing the best we can with our attire, without crossing the border into fantasy or theatre, and to bear in mind how we can be as smartly dressed as possible for the occassion without over-doing it. I understand that to some (especially people here on this forum- bearing in mind it is a forum with a sartorial basis) this comes completely naturally, seeemingly without any effort at all. While others of us might struggle somewhat- but that's why we're here, to get advice, to get feedback, criticism and hopefully also pass on some of our own knowledge or wisdom.

Cheers,

Michael

[David Thorpe]

...Basically, I think it's a question of doing the best we can with our attire, without crossing the border into fantasy or theatre, and to bear in mind how we can be as smartly dressed as possible for the occassion without over-doing it. I understand that to some (especially people here on this forum- bearing in mind it is a forum with a sartorial basis) this comes completely naturally, seeemingly without any effort at all. While others of us might struggle somewhat- but that's why we're here, to get advice, to get feedback, criticism and hopefully also pass on some of our own knowledge or wisdom.

Cheers,

Michael

Very well said.

[Jack Daw]

I submit that it comes from an acquaintance and not a real friend. A friend would respect your tastes and reasons for doing what you do, even if he disagreed.

Or, he's a friend who just doesn't know any better.

[SlackerDrummer]

Just a thought to add fuel to the fire. David Pope posted this in a concurrent thread:

Button-down collar shirts seem to be much more popular here in the States than overseas and are often seen worn with a suit and tie, although this type of shirt is designed to be worn casually. Likewise, many men here in the South wear full brogues with business suits, although they are country shoes.

While it is true that button-down collars were designed for active pursuits and brogues were originally country shoes I think we are well past the point that these things are strictly relegated to these positions. It may show more class (or at least better fashion sense) to not wear button-downs or brogues with a suit, but at least in the United States we are well past the point where doing so is gauche. Remember clothing styles evolve. And before anyone complains that we are becoming less and less formal to our own detriment, I'd like to point out that it was only 100 years ago that, in some circles, it would have been unheard of to show up for dinner in a black tie. Black ties were relegated to day wear; white tie was the appropriate attire for dinner. Now white tie is reserved for state dinners and the fanciest do. Yet, we currently accept black tie today as formal wear.

Traditions change, albeit in an evolutionary sense. At some point things stop being traditional and start to become "living in the past" and I guess at some point, then, you can become "too traditional".

More thoughts, but I'll save them for later.

[Tobus]

Seeing as AA has yet to clarify what he means, I'll take a crack at it. Could it mean wearing a kilt in a way that is traditional, but also classic, current, and up to date?

I'm really hoping auld argonian will clarify his statement, because I took it to be completely different than you did. I interpret his response as meaning he wears whatever he would normally wear in everyday life... but with a kilt. This might mean wearing modern shirts (say, a polo style shirt), etc.

[creagdhubh]

I'm really hoping auld argonian will clarify his statement, because I took it to be completely different than you did. I interpret his response as meaning he wears whatever he would normally wear in everyday life... but with a kilt. This might mean wearing modern shirts (say, a polo style shirt), etc.

I took it the same way, Tobus.

Colin,

So, is my attire not '2012' enough? I'm confused here. I really do not see that vast of a difference in approach, personal flair and style in regards to my Highland day attire and those of the men featured in your photo examples. Of course, the Lonach Highlanders (Forbes and Wallace men) are in uniform, appropriate to the context of the Lonach Gathering, but as far as everyone else, what is the major difference between my approach and theirs?

In the past, I have looked to HRH The Duke of Rothesay, His Grace The Duke of Argyll, my own Chief, Sir William Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, P/M Gordon Walker, John D. Burgess and others (David Pope, Matt Newsome, Sandy MacLean, Jock Scot, Todd Wilkinson, etc) for gentle guidance - not too copy or emulate completely (I have my own tastes, preferences, style and fashion sense), but for general inspiration, if you will (arguably, that is what we all do here on XMTS, we learn and grow from and with eachother). I see nothing inherently wrong with that - not saying you do - I'm just saying.

When I mentioned that I am a 'one foot in the past' sort of chap when it comes to mindset, manners and clothing, well, with respect to the aspect of clothing, what a I mean is my actual approach and attitude towards being a well-dressed man and not some sloppy, pajama wearing in-the-daytime, bloke. I don't actually mean I am trying to look like a chap that has walked out of the early 1930's! Definitely not a literal sense, though I am fond of bygone days when men always wore suits and women always wore dresses. Am I a romantic? Possibly, yes.

Two vastly different approaches, yet in my opinion, both were appropriate to the context of the Clan Macpherson Annual General Meeting.


Photo of my cooperative teacher and I during my 16-week student-teaching practicum. I taught a 'cultural connections' thematic unit regarding Scotland and the USA to middle school students. I felt this attire was appropriate to the context and so did the school administrators and faculty.


I surprised my students with having my good mate and professional piper, P/M Matt Pantaleoni strike up a few tunes and explain the origins and history of the Great Highland Bagpipe, as well as its use as an 'instrument of war.'


Sandy MacLean (JSFMACLJR) and I at the 2011 Kentucky Scottish Weekend. Are we 'overdressed' for the context of an outdoor 'Scottish' event (games/gathering of sorts)? Perhaps 'too traditional?'


Opinions and constructive criticism are most welcome, but I fear I am running out of photos...must consult my albums at home and upload more! Ha-ha!

Cheers,