Too Traditional?

[davidlpope]

While it is true that button-down collars were designed for active pursuits and brogues were originally country shoes I think we are well past the point that these things are strictly relegated to these positions. It may show more class (or at least better fashion sense) to not wear button-downs or brogues with a suit, but at least in the United States we are well past the point where doing so is gauche. Remember clothing styles evolve.

Kenneth, good point. My concern is that many changes in style have more to do with marketing by retailers than an actual evolution by society. By way of example, two friends of mine, both college graduates and Marine officers, one a graduate of a well-respected western law school, were leaving the Marine Corps and interviewing for civilian jobs. They came to me with questions about interview attire, etc. I was amazed by how little they knew concerning men's business attire. Their entire knowledge base was what the salesman at Brooks Brothers had shared with them during a visit to the shop. They had dinner at the house and I took about an hour and discussed some basic pointers about a man's conservative business wardrobe and they left very appreciative and well-prepared for interviews.

My point is this: these are very sharp, very bright guys, but there was no mechanism in their 25+ years of life to transmit this info to them. As a result, they were at the mercy of the salesman at the shop. Since they had gone to BB, they were luckier than most. I can attest that the local saleswoman at the small neighborhood Belk store is much, much less knowledgeable, and generally recommends whatever the store has in stock.

The same happens with many highland attire retailers- hence gads and gads of white hose, fly plaids, ruche ties, tartan flashes, and pirate shirts foisted on the unsuspecting consumer because they think "this is what I'm supposed to wear when I dress up in Scottish duds". Most novice kiltwearers simply rely on what "the guy at the shop told them." Some highland suppliers (thankfully, not the folks who are wise enought to advertise on Xmarks...) are simply ignorant concerning the products they sell to the public.

That's one of the reasons that Xmarks provides such a great service to the kilt-wearing world...

[creagdhubh]

Kenneth, good point. My concern is that many changes in style have more to do with marketing by retailers than an actual evolution by society. By way of example, two friends of mine, both college graduates and Marine officers, one a graduate of a well-respected western law school, were leaving the Marine Corps and interviewing for civilian jobs. They came to me with questions about interview attire, etc. I was amazed by how little they knew concerning men's business attire. Their entire knowledge base was what the salesman at Brooks Brothers had shared with them during a visit to the shop. They had dinner at the house and I took about an hour and discussed some basic pointers about a man's conservative business wardrobe and they left very appreciative and well-prepared for interviews.

My point is this: these are very sharp, very bright guys, but there was no mechanism in their 25+ years of life to transmit this info to them. As a result, they were at the mercy of the salesman at the shop. Since they had gone to BB, they were luckier than most. I can attest that the local saleswoman at the small neighborhood Belk store is much, much less knowledgeable, and generally recommends whatever the store has in stock.

The same happens with many highland attire retailers- hence gads and gads of white hose, fly plaids, ruche ties, tartan flashes, and pirate shirts foisted on the unsuspecting consumer because they think "this is what I'm supposed to wear when I dress up in Scottish duds". Most novice kiltwearers simply rely on what "the guy at the shop told them." Some highland suppliers (thankfully, not the folks who are wise enought to advertise on Xmarks...) are simply ignorant concerning the products they sell to the public.

That's one of the reasons that Xmarks provides such a great service to the kilt-wearing world...

Wonderfully put, David.

[auld argonian]

Yeah, please...nobody take this personally...no offense intended ever. To paraphrase that old '60's dorm room poster, " I do my thing, and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we run into each other at a Highland Games, we'll buy each other a pint and laugh at the guys who are still wearing pants."

Best

AA

[creagdhubh]

Yeah, please...nobody take this personally...no offense intended ever. To paraphrase that old '60's dorm room poster, " I do my thing, and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we run into each other at a Highland Games, we'll buy each other a pint and laugh at the guys who are still wearing pants."

Best

AA

Hahahaha! Well put AA, well put indeed! I'll drink to that!



Slainte mhath,

[Father Bill]

Yeah, please...nobody take this personally...no offense intended ever. To paraphrase that old '60's dorm room poster, " I do my thing, and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I, and if by chance we run into each other at a Highland Games, we'll buy each other a pint and laugh at the guys who are still wearing pants."

Best

AA

Good grief, AA - you're dating yourself! Right in sync with me!

[auld argonian]

Good grief, AA - you're dating yourself! Right in sync with me!

I mean...no foolin'...I dated a girl that had that one on her bedroom wall...I know it's 43 years later but please don't tell her parents that I was in her bedroom...

I know that the line is, "If you remember the '60's, you probably weren't there..." but I have a tragically good memory.

Best

AA

[Mael Coluim]

OK AA and FB here is the poster that was in my dorm room.

[Father Bill]

OK AA and FB here is the poster that was in my dorm room.

Yeah, I had that one. That's my wife a couple of weeks ago!

[davidlpope]

Here is where you lose me. Even the fellow who wears a suit and tie to work and worship, and a tie, slacks and blazer out to dinner is not likely to wear a suit and tie to the county fair on Saturday. They probably would have 100 years ago, but it is very doubtful today. In that regard, much of THCD is an affectation (I certainly don't mean that in a derogatory way). It doesn't matter what you wear in other circumstances (e.g. work, worship); what is relevant is how you would dress as an analog to when you are kilted.

I guess I'm having a hard time coming up with an analog. A Highland Games is a Highland Games, not a county fair. Traditionally, men wear kilts, shirts, ties, tweed jackets, kilts, hose, and leather lace-up shoes to Highland Games. When it's too hot for that I take off my jacket and tie and roll up my shirt sleeves.

There is quite a continuum between the puffy shirt and current THCD. Suggesting that those are the only two alternatives seems a little disingenuous to me.

It was meant to be. My point is that American sensibilities, when "interpreting" a Scottish cultural tradition, often lead to heinous results.

[SlackerDrummer]

I guess I'm having a hard time coming up with an analog. A Highland Games is a Highland Games, not a county fair. Traditionally, men wear kilts, shirts, ties, tweed jackets, kilts, hose, and leather lace-up shoes to Highland Games. When it's too hot for that I take off my jacket and tie and roll up my shirt sleeves.

Any daytime, weekend-long festival should suffice as an analog, but that's neither here nor there. I agree with you that there is a traditional standard of dress when kilted at a Highland Games; I'm merely pointing out that it has not changed in a century while the rest of what we think of as appropriate attire for any number of other occasions has (70 years ago, men wore suits to college (American) football games). For me, this has implications on when and where it is appropriate to wear the kilt and leads me to the conclusion that what might not be "too traditional" at a Highland Games may simply be inappropriate on other occasions because "traditional" is not relative to that situation (to tie it all in to the original question). Others will - and do - differ in their opinion.

It was meant to be. My point is that American sensibilities, when "interpreting" a Scottish cultural tradition, often lead to heinous results.

Too right.