"Balmoral" Doublet Help?

[Jock Scot]

CMcG.

Well not quite! What is this semi-formal thing? Never heard of it. White tie is height of formality and black tie is formal. It is the degree of formality that one needs to be aware of to dress appropriately. Most of us have no need for white tie attire , for very good reasons, but the more normal and more usual black tie events can range from a high society event where bells and whistles might be required(or NOT!) to a private dinner where just dress attire is required. However, please let us not go down this semi-formal route, it is a misleading dead end.

[CMcG]

CMcG.

Well not quite! What is this semi-formal thing? Never heard of it. White tie is height of formality and black tie is formal. It is the degree of formality that one needs to be aware of to dress appropriately. Most of us have no need for white tie attire , for very good reasons, but the more normal and more usual black tie events can range from a high society event where bells and whistles might be required(or NOT!) to a private dinner where just dress attire is required. However, please let us not go down this semi-formal route, it is a misleading dead end.

You are quite right that semi-formal is misleading. I continue to find dress codes confusing because people use such different terminology, without even counting people using one term but meaning something else! Perhaps referring to black tie as semi-formal is archaic because of today's more relaxed social standards of formality

I have read that black tie can be referred to as formal or semi-formal, as well as just evening dress, depending on who you are talking to. White tie can apparently be called formal, full formal, or full dress... there are probably other names too This is further complicated by the fact that black bow ties seem to be considered acceptable for white tie Highland attire! I prefer formal for black tie and full(est) formal for white tie

Truthfully, I don't really need white tie attire at this point in my life, but depending on which university I end up at once I get my PhD, I hear that it might become more necessary for some official functions and ceremonies. It doesn't hurt to be prepared and at least I know I can also wear my new doublet for black tie too. Besides, it leads to interesting discussions on Xmarks

[Cygnus]

I was under the impression that prior to WWII, today's "black tie" was informal while today's "white tie" was formal. I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the past 60 years "semiformal" came to be a term used for black tie, though I haven't seen it used as such. The steady degradation of dress codes has really led to a great deal of confusion, particularly since they degrade at different rates in different places.

In this century it would seem that "formal", in the United States, can be interpreted as "no sandals allowed"...

Truthfully, I don't really need white tie attire at this point in my life, but depending on which university I end up at once I get my PhD, I hear that it might become more necessary for some official functions and ceremonies. It doesn't hurt to be prepared and at least I know I can also wear my new doublet for black tie too. Besides, it leads to interesting discussions on Xmarks

It's just like MacLowlife pointed out above - if you don't have it, you won't attend such an event - but if you do, you're likely to find an event to suit your wardrobe.

[Jock Scot]

CMcG.

I have had what I am about to say confirmed, over time, by many on this website, so this may help clear the fog!

In UK terms, "dress" means formal in the terms we are talking about above.

As I understand it, in the USA and Canada it appears that "dress" means something rather less formal. For example, a smart shirt used for a funeral or business wear with a suit is often described here by you chaps as a "dress" shirt.

For us over here in the UK, a "dress" shirt is a formal shirt to be worn with formal attire.

[artificer]

Jock, you are correct that, in the US at least, "Dress" means you might be forced to put on a tie. I believe it comes from little boys complaining that they have to get "dressed up" for company.

Semi-formal is a term (badly) used to mean a level of dress from lounge/business suit up to black tie. It is also known as Black Tie Optional. As you're rather fond of saying, it is neither fish-nor-fowl.

I've never been to a white tie event, as I rarely travel in such rarefied circles. I have been to a number of events that were either Black Tie or Black Tie Optional (Semi-formal).
Given the nature of things as they are here in the US, Semi-formal means that a few people inevitably show up in khakis and a polo shirt.

ith:

[CMcG]

CMcG.

I have had what I am about to say confirmed, over time, by many on this website, so this may help clear the fog!

In UK terms, "dress" means formal in the terms we are talking about above.

As I understand it, in the USA and Canada it appears that "dress" means something rather less formal. For example, a smart shirt used for a funeral or business wear with a suit is often described here by you chaps as a "dress" shirt.

For us over here in the UK, a "dress" shirt is a formal shirt to be worn with formal attire.

Once again separated by a common language, eh?

[Father Bill]

A dress shirt likely has a pleated front, possibly pique. The collar may be laid down or recently wingtips have come back into vogue.

There are always those who like to push the meaning of words. They have no idea the damage they do. When words cease to have meanings there also ceases to be any way to communicate. The problems we so often experience on this forum are only a small symptom of that.

The idea that "I'll do as I d___ well please" in some cultures is a major weakness and error that cuts us adrift, isolates, and separates us one from one another. It isn't freedom; it is a failure to cooperate that in fact becomes a new kind of prison. What a loss from large egos.

Here endeth the sermon.

[JWLC]

To briefly get back on topic, I found and bid on a very similar doublet on eBay this morning but didn't win.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....vip=true&rt=nc

At £10.49 it was quite a bargain, and it appears to differ from CMcG's doublet in the lapels. Sadly, I may not have the need for another doublet at this time.

I was under the impression that prior to WWII, today's "black tie" was informal while today's "white tie" was formal. I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the past 60 years "semiformal" came to be a term used for black tie, though I haven't seen it used as such. The steady degradation of dress codes has really led to a great deal of confusion, particularly since they degrade at different rates in different places.
In this century it would seem that "formal", in the United States, can be interpreted as "no sandals allowed"...

You're right. According to the Black Tie Guide, The terms "informal" and "formal" to refer to 'black tie' and 'white tie' respectively had 'downgraded' throughout the ages such thus black tie had begun to be designated as gradually "semi-formal", and presumably by today, "formal". Personally, I'd prefer to revert to a nomenclature where "semi-formal" refers to "black-tie" and "formal", to "white-tie" but we knwo that's not going to happen.

In UK terms, "dress" means formal in the terms we are talking about above.
As I understand it, in the USA and Canada it appears that "dress" means something rather less formal. For example, a smart shirt used for a funeral or business wear with a suit is often described here by you chaps as a "dress" shirt.
For us over here in the UK, a "dress" shirt is a formal shirt to be worn with formal attire.

Here in Australia, we tend to follow the UK in terms of satorial definitions. Hence a "dress shirt" is (properly) taken to mean one that's worn with formal wear. At least, that is what you'll be offered if you were to ask for one at any tailor or decent menswear outlet.

You are quite right that semi-formal is misleading. I continue to find dress codes confusing because people use such different terminology, without even counting people using one term but meaning something else! Perhaps referring to black tie as semi-formal is archaic because of today's more relaxed social standards of formality

I have read that black tie can be referred to as formal or semi-formal, as well as just evening dress, depending on who you are talking to. White tie can apparently be called formal, full formal, or full dress... there are probably other names too This is further complicated by the fact that black bow ties seem to be considered acceptable for white tie Highland attire! I prefer formal for black tie and full(est) formal for white tie :

Like those who have posted above, I too found semi-formal to be unfortunately one of the most confusingly abused terms in today's society. In Australia, dress tends to err on the side of casual and I've heard/read more than once that "formal" is simply a way of saying "turn up in something dressier than jeans"! I've been to "semi-formal" gatherings where outfits have been a mélange of jeans and shirts to suits to black tie.

I've found that those events that manage to have people best adhere to the dress code are ones that specifically state, say, "black tie" or "lounge suits".

At the end of the day, what matters is context. And if still in doubt, clarify with the host/hostess and suit on -- or kilt on -- as appropriate.

Truthfully, I don't really need white tie attire at this point in my life, but depending on which university I end up at once I get my PhD, I hear that it might become more necessary for some official functions and ceremonies. It doesn't hurt to be prepared and at least I know I can also wear my new doublet for black tie too. Besides, it leads to interesting discussions on Xmarks

CMcG, are there actually many universities in North America where white tie is called for at functions? At Oxbridge, TCD and the other older British universities, that is the case, and elsewhere in Europe -- especially Scandinavia.

I shouldn't think that this particular doublet would look too dressy at a black tie function. Particularly if the majority -- if kilted -- may invariably be dressed in PCs and Argylls and may not know better.

[CMcG]

...
CMcG, are there actually many universities in North America where white tie is called for at functions? At Oxbridge, TCD and the other older British universities, that is the case, and elsewhere in Europe -- especially Scandinavia.

I shouldn't think that this particular doublet would look too dressy at a black tie function. Particularly if the majority -- if kilted -- may invariably be dressed in PCs and Argylls and may not know better.

There probably aren't many (any?) universities in Canada or the US that have white tie functions, but given the vagaries of the academic job market, I could very well end up outside North America. There is also always the possibility that I could get invited to a full formal ball or other white tie event. If it ever happens, I'll be ready, and until then I'll just enjoy trying to figure out some of the intricacies involved

For now, I'm more likely to wear my new doublet for black tie events, so I'm glad you agree it wouldn't be too formal. If I vary the accessories as I suggested in an earlier post, it should indeed fit in with the PCs and dress Argylls, though it will also still stand out a bit.

[Downunder Kilt]

CMcG I think your new jacket will be ideal for black or white tie events. For black tie either buttoned or unbuttoned would suit the occasion, and done up for white tie of course. As for your ghillie brogues with buckles and short laces, I would think it comes into the realm of you adding your own finesse to the outfit. In fact I am attending a black tie murder mystery dinner (set in the 1920's) aboard a train, this friday. I am intending to wear ghillies based upon your buckle attachment design. Good buy and wear the new jacket in good health