Too Traditional?

[Ryan Ross]

Ok, with all the talk of appropriate level of formality and such, I have this to pose:

Using the below picture as an example to comment on, how would you say that I was dressed, on the traditional scale, baring in mind that what I wanted to do was go for a walk in the woods on an extremely mild early-Winter day? Have a good look and think on it, before forming a concrete idea.

I'm certainly not dressed "too" traditionally... but am I dressed traditionally at all?

[SlackerDrummer]

Ryan,

You have posed an interesting question and one that I have given a lot of thought to lately. One of the issues with THCD is that it has not changed (I hesitate to use the phrase "kept pace") with the rest of society. It dates to a time when people wore suits - all people, more or less, regardless of what level of society they fell - and has changed little since then. While occasionally you will see kilted gentlemen at a highland games in Scotland wearing (what we call) a barn coat, most are wearing the Highland equivalent of a suit and I have wondered what percentage of the non-kilted at these events are wearing suits. I'm guessing not many. I have to admit I don't know, but I've been to the World Pipe Band Championships and I didn't see any suits there. So, what then is the analog in THCD for today's more casual dress? I'm stuck feeling like there just isn't one. And to that end, it's hard not to feel like a lot of THCD is an affectation, particularly outside of Scotland.

To answer your question, then, I think your dress is appropriate, but probably not "traditional" because what THCD is really based on is a class of society that would more than likely be wearing at least a collared shirt, even to go for a walk in the woods.

[CMcG]

... So, what then is the analog in THCD for today's more casual dress? I'm stuck feeling like there just isn't one. And to that end, it's hard not to feel like a lot of THCD is an affectation, particularly outside of Scotland.

To answer your question, then, I think your dress is appropriate, but probably not "traditional" because what THCD is really based on is a class of society that would more than likely be wearing at least a collared shirt, even to go for a walk in the woods.

Further to my posts 340 and 341 (YIKES this thread is massive ), here is a search string from Getty Images using the key words "Prince Charles," "Kilt," and "Casual Clothing":
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Se...Prince+Charles

I think the Duke of Rothesay shows very nicely that there are traditional options that are less dressy than a jacket and tie, which provides more options in relation to one of the main conundrums of this thread: when traditional levels of formality don't fit into a more sartorially relaxed, contemporary context, dressing too traditionally can result in one being overdressed for the occasion.

From Ryan's picture, we can't see his shoes to comment. From hose to belt (excluding the recent origin of his tartan), he looks traditional. That shirt, however, would probably be considered "underwear" by THCD standards I'm not sure if this is a class thing as SlackerDrummer suggests, because traditional dress in general would always have a button up shirt.

Here is what Rothesay might wear for a similar occasion as Ryan's jaunt in the woods in mild weather:

[MacMillans son]

And to that end, it's hard not to feel like a lot of THCD is an affectation, particularly outside of Scotland.

Well SD, there are many who believe that any non-Scot wearing a traditional kilt outside of the Highlands constitutes an act of affectation. So who, and and at what level of dress, do you propose makes that distinction? Perhaps only those things made in Seattle are not examples of affectation outside the Highlands?

I suspect that some people are not comfortable wearing a style of dress that includes things reminiscent of their father's style of dress, ie neck ties and jackets. As was pointed out, those are not specific to traditional Highland attire but were, not too long ago, common day wear here in the states as well. I cant help but think that some people's current disdain for them, accept in the most formal of settings, is some kind of lingering rebellion born of the dismal 1960s .

I think that judging and labeling other people's manner of wearing Highland attire (as I may have just done ) is not all that productive. If you like wearing ties and jackets as day wear, cool, if you prefer to wear t shirts and flip flips, go for it. I certainly wear what I think is clothing appropriate to the setting (hiking attire while hiking etc). I must say though that there seems to be a feeling here, from the more casual of our members, that those of us who prefer a tie and jacket as daywear are, as you said affectational (not sure of that conjugation) and those who prefer a more casual style are somehow more real. I'm not sure where that feeling comes from. I truly don't experience it coming from the other side, but perhaps that's because I tend to come from that perspective.

Regards,
Brooke

[Dale Seago]

***, Brooke.

[MacLowlife]

I think "affected" works, Brooke. Or maybe "are an affectation". I think you have nicely recapped CMcG's original question- and added the valid point that we might all strive to be productive above all else. It is funny- the sixties really hit SC in 1970 or thereabouts, and until recently, seemed to have faded. I agree, there seems to be a sixties revival going on, but I have to remind myself that people born in 1994, during BILL CLINTON's presidency, are now voting adults.


Now, please, let's have 4 more posts so that we can get this thing to 400.

[Tobus]

Ok, with all the talk of appropriate level of formality and such, I have this to pose:

Using the below picture as an example to comment on, how would you say that I was dressed, on the traditional scale, baring in mind that what I wanted to do was go for a walk in the woods on an extremely mild early-Winter day? Have a good look and think on it, before forming a concrete idea.

I'm certainly not dressed "too" traditionally... but am I dressed traditionally at all?

Much as I like that look (I too have been known to wear a "Henley" style shirt with the kilt), I would say no. That is not at all traditional. Despite the fact that you are wearing some traditional accessories with your kilt, such as a sgian dubh, plain daywear sporran, etc., the overall effect does not come across as looking traditional. I would classify this look as a contemporary twist on kilt wearing (though not necessarily crossing over into "contemporary kilt" territory). Such classifications have a lot of grey areas.

In the end, though, it may be that what's most important is the overall visual effect. For example, you could be 100% pure THCD from your neck to your knees, but if you're wearing flip-flops with a traditional outfit, the overall effect is not traditional. I hesitate to say it's all-or-nothing, because sometimes a minor non-traditional piece doesn't ruin the overall traditional look. But in your example, the shirt style steers it well away from looking traditional.

This isn't to say, of course, that it doesn't look great.

[davidlpope]

I guess there might be a certain disconnect (interpreted as an affectation) if one usually dresses very informally (jeans, undershirts worn as outer clothing, short pants when not exercising, etc.) on a daily basis but wears a jacket, waistcoat, and necktie with one's kilt.

On the other hand, if one wears a suit and tie every day to work, to worship on Sundays, and a tie, slacks, and blazer when taking the bride out for a nice dinner on Saturday night, it doesn't seem out of place to wear a tie and tweed jacket when kilted (when the weather is appropriate).

For those of us who didn't grow up wearing the kilt, perhaps it comes down to a question of who you want to emulate: the middle-aged American in the puffy pirate shirt with the big sword and blue facepaint or those Highlanders who have worn the kilt from birth in the manner of their ancestors...

[Jock Scot]

Nearly there!Come on CMcG you post No. 400!

Just something for you all to think about. THCD is not all tweeds, tattersall shirts and club ties you know. On the rare occasion that it is not raining and the temperature is a tad over freezing it is not unknown for the traditional kilted gentleman to go bare chested, bare foot and without a sporran, when strolling along a beach with the girl friend, wife or children in Scotland! It will undoubtedly be a wool kilt and sand and salt will attach themselves to the cloth. A dunking in freshwater, a burn with fresh running water is best, for an hour before hanging the kilt to dry from a handy tree will solve the cleaning problem.

An uncommon set of events in Scotland, I grant you, but in the right circumstance it is one hundred percent THCD and wearing much more would indeed be overdoing things.

[SlackerDrummer]

I guess there might be a certain disconnect (interpreted as an affectation) if one usually dresses very informally (jeans, undershirts worn as outer clothing, short pants when not exercising, etc.) on a daily basis but wears a jacket, waistcoat, and necktie with one's kilt.

Indeed.

On the other hand, if one wears a suit and tie every day to work, to worship on Sundays, and a tie, slacks, and blazer when taking the bride out for a nice dinner on Saturday night, it doesn't seem out of place to wear a tie and tweed jacket when kilted (when the weather is appropriate).

Here is where you lose me. Even the fellow who wears a suit and tie to work and worship, and a tie, slacks and blazer out to dinner is not likely to wear a suit and tie to the county fair on Saturday. They probably would have 100 years ago, but it is very doubtful today. In that regard, much of THCD is an affectation (I certainly don't mean that in a derogatory way). It doesn't matter what you wear in other circumstances (e.g. work, worship); what is relevant is how you would dress as an analog to when you are kilted.

For those of us who didn't grow up wearing the kilt, perhaps it comes down to a question of who you want to emulate: the middle-aged American in the puffy pirate shirt with the big sword and blue facepaint or those Highlanders who have worn the kilt from birth in the manner of their ancestors...

There is quite a continuum between the puffy shirt and current THCD. Suggesting that those are the only two alternatives seems a little disingenuous to me.

EDIT: Apologies, Colin. Jock snuck in a post while I was writing. I thought I was 399!