Food for thought

[David Thorpe]

There is expertise and then there is expertise. I find expertise with a solid factual basis to be very helpful; that based on conjecture, opinion, speculation and belief, not so much. Serious problems arise when "experts" confuse the two, whether deliberately or out of ignorance.

[Father Bill]

Tundra, you may not feel hatred for experts and expertise, for which I am grateful, but I encounter it pretty well daily. I hope that your unfortunate surgical experience improves somehow with time (and prayer?) and that you are able to maintain your outlook which seems so positive.

[Lyle1]

As was said earlier, trust is important when discussing expertise. There are several ways to establish trust--one example is tobget a professional society credential. Another, for XMTS and other less professionally rigid constructs, I like to see who says what and evaluate a person's expertise by what they say and how the behave/interact.

Another point which I have not yet seen is the matter of relevance. Not picking on PhDs, but if your field of study is mathematics then your expertise is not relevant to a sociology person. Not directly anyway.

Moreover, relevance is from MY point of view. If your expertise is not consistent with my world view, then it is not relevant. So, in that regard, TO ME, one is not an expert. No matter their credential or establisged experience, if Ibdo not aspire to be like that person then their expertise is not anything I am concerned with.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a dissertation board consists if experts in a particular field assessing a new potential experts contribution, no? Put a non-related expert on that board and one could argue all those years if research were wasted...at least not appreciated by the "right" expert.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Trust, based on experience, is necessary in order to accept that a person knows what he is talking about, or that what he is saying is a t least relevant to the topic at hand. Creating a new credentialing process to provide credence to a profession is not really worth the effort. i worked in two professions that tried that, and in the end, the credentials did nothing to convince the nay sayers that the professions were real.

That said, a PhD in mathematics does not indicate that an individual has any expertise in sociology, but he might have picked up a lot of expertise through life experience.

If you have a reason, even gut instinct, not to trust someone's opinion, then you probably should not trust them. Agendas can come into play in a discussion as much as facts and theories.

Sadly, I think we often accept the expert who most often says what we want to hear.

[Father Bill]

Father, I don't think it's hatred. It's more like distrust. Even the AMA requires internship at a hospital for medical doctors before granting full license to prove that the knowledge can be put to use wisely in solving real problems. I still get second opinions before the knife comes out when possible. My last big surgury to remove 1/3 of my large intestine went very well except for the reclosing of the incision site. It tore out 4 months later and I now have a large (4 by 6 inch) dacron patch that 12 years later still keeps me from wearing kilts at standard waist height. Yes, I followed post OP instructions to the letter.

Seems my last reply didn't "save" in:

It may not seem like hatred to you, Tundra, but believe me I encounter it most days. The resentment has built far beyond distrust, and even that distrust is often paired with anger that presages or mimics hatred.

I pray that both surgical issue improves (perhaps with prayer?) and that you manage to maintain your attitude which seems so very positive.

Bill+

[ForresterModern]

I think one part of demonstrating expertise in an area is the ability to easily and simply educate others ignorant of that area in its basic and sometimes more advanced facets. There are some extremely intelligent people out there doing good work themselves, but who have terrible "bedside" manner, i.e., the ability to explain their topic and demonstrate their expertise to those upon whom they intend to "inflict" it. That communication is where the trust forms and where the "ignorant" become more educated and thus more trusting of the "expert".

But beware the phenomenon of "Those who can't do, teach" and its corrolary "Those who can't teach, do". There are many instances where the best teachers are not necessarily the best practitioners (I would not let the chief surgeon where I trained operate on my dog let alone myself or my family, but he developed and provided a phenomenal teaching program). And as I stated previously often the best practitioners are out in the real world banging out the cases (to the great benefit of the many patients they see), but when put in a position where they are expected to slow down and explain what they are doing and why they become, well discombobulated------learning from these folks is best done by observation without intrusion, and occasional questioning of purpose of technical aspects of their procedures.

I hold no truck with PhDs (or MDs or other similar educational equivalents), as I owe much of my 14 years of post-high school education to them, although I will say that there were many whose "pearls" were taken with a large grain of salt, especially when they could not communicate with their students, or otherwise demonstrated some connection. And how do you put faith or trust in the teachings of someone who shows up to teach an advanced class everyday in a cardigan sweater (in either maroon or navy blue) which is mis-buttoned by at least one button, and oftentimes by several (one time 6 buttons off on a 7 button sweater). Others who grabbed students' interests and held them and nourished them could be equally eccentric but at least make the connections and trust necessary to make what they taught have more real meaning and value (a color blind genetics professor who was also an amateur painter--yes I said color blind---showing up in the dead of winter in paint stained shorts and shortsleeved shirt with the neck of a bottle of Gilbey's Gin sticking out of his back pocket-------I chose this guy as my pre-med advisor after dumping the turd I was assigned). Many with dedication even continued to hold classes in their off campus homes during a three week professors' strike in order to honor both their commitment to the strike as well as their commitment to the education of the students in whose hands they were entrusted.

Credentials are fine but they only take you so far, with the demonstration of the makeup of those credentials, and personal interaction and interpersonal development of a relationship needed to develop the true trust needed in an expert IMHO. Sometimes we cannot for whatever reason acquire some or all of those pieces and are left making that decision of "expertise" based on what pieces we can put together, a less than ideal situation IMHO.

[tundramanq]

The internet is a great place to learn - with salt - something about a subject. It's better than going on blind faith in being involved with a decision. It improves communication with the expert and keeps him from having to try to teach most of the basics to you ( see FMs teacher vs doer). I also helps to seperate the experts from the chest pounders who clam up when they realize you may know more on the subject than they do. LOL Four of my short cuts are to good medical sites - guess what is the nearest and dearest subject to my heart - my own skin.

Father - Not to worry, I get mad and then get over myself, it's self distructive and unchristian to carry a grudge. Humans are not perfect, they will make mistakes.

As a perfectionest, I am much harder on myself than others. It was learn to deal with being human long ago or go nuts.
Maybe nuttier.

[Zardoz]

I continue to be disappointed at the hatred and distrust of expertise in our society, often by those who don't have it. The fact that one doesn't understand an expert is indeed an indication of a communication gap. The question is, "Who owns the gap?"

This public mood swing seems to have come with the post-modern assertion that all opinions are equal. To be honest, when undergoing open-heart surgery, I would like to think that my surgeon had been trained by an expert, (and yes, one who was able to communicate that expertise) but not by someone whose opinion was merely deemed "equal."

And yes, folks, having been educated by a vast array of PhDs, I admit that I actually understood and appreciated them all. Do I need to apologize for that?

I wonder if the hatred of experts is a new "racism" or just sour grapes... and now that I've made myself so very popular, it's time to shave and shower!

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
― Isaac Asimov

I think distrust comes into play a lot. For example, I watched a documentary last night about subjects that are not germain to this forum, where people with PHDs and/or 'Dr.' in front of their name, spoke authoritatively to large groups of enthusiastic listeners. Problem was they were deciminating what I and I hope the vast majority of educated people would consider fairy tales. So do I trust those experts? No I think they are either crazy, or charlatans. They also told folks not to trust other "experts" that might disagree with them, so there you go, lots of mistrust to go around.

[Tobus]

I continue to be disappointed at the hatred and distrust of expertise in our society, often by those who don't have it. The fact that one doesn't understand an expert is indeed an indication of a communication gap. The question is, "Who owns the gap?"

This public mood swing seems to have come with the post-modern assertion that all opinions are equal. To be honest, when undergoing open-heart surgery, I would like to think that my surgeon had been trained by an expert, (and yes, one who was able to communicate that expertise) but not by someone whose opinion was merely deemed "equal."

And yes, folks, having been educated by a vast array of PhDs, I admit that I actually understood and appreciated them all. Do I need to apologize for that?

I wonder if the hatred of experts is a new "racism" or just sour grapes... and now that I've made myself so very popular, it's time to shave and shower!

Don't worry, Father Bill, you're not alone. I'm disturbed by the social backlash I've been seeing in the last few years against education and specialization. I've had this discussion with a lot of people, and it seems that in virtually every instance, those who tend to deride education are those who either (1) do not have an education, or (2) chose a field of study which has no market demand. Their arguments usually center around some personal anecdote about an educated person who was incompetent on a given subject, and so they have made their minds up that this means all education is pointless.

To be fair, institutionalized education has its issues. Even professional certification/licensing programs have their issues. But on the whole, they have value to society and the individuals who participate in them. Western society is rapidly losing its stature in the global economy due to a loss of interest in such programs. And meanwhile, other areas of the world are making huge pushes to educate their children, and we can see their industries and economies rising to the forefront. Coincidence? I think not. It simply boggles my mind that so many otherwise-intelligent people in our society can pooh-pooh education and specialization while watching this happen.

And I'm not really even addressing the comments made here in this thread. It's just more of an overall sense that I get, from talking to people in the real world, discussing issues with other people on the internet, watching popular culture around me, and even seeing it happen in my own profession. (Aside from working as an engineer, I also sit on the advisory board for a well known technical school, and I'm appalled at the careless attitude that the younger generation seems to take towards education.)

[artificer]

Don't worry, Father Bill, you're not alone. I'm disturbed by the social backlash I've been seeing in the last few years against education and specialization. I've had this discussion with a lot of people, and it seems that in virtually every instance, those who tend to deride education are those who either (1) do not have an education, or (2) chose a field of study which has no market demand. Their arguments usually center around some personal anecdote about an educated person who was incompetent on a given subject, and so they have made their minds up that this means all education is pointless.

To be fair, institutionalized education has its issues. Even professional certification/licensing programs have their issues. But on the whole, they have value to society and the individuals who participate in them. Western society is rapidly losing its stature in the global economy due to a loss of interest in such programs. And meanwhile, other areas of the world are making huge pushes to educate their children, and we can see their industries and economies rising to the forefront. Coincidence? I think not. It simply boggles my mind that so many otherwise-intelligent people in our society can pooh-pooh education and specialization while watching this happen.

And I'm not really even addressing the comments made here in this thread. It's just more of an overall sense that I get, from talking to people in the real world, discussing issues with other people on the internet, watching popular culture around me, and even seeing it happen in my own profession. (Aside from working as an engineer, I also sit on the advisory board for a well known technical school, and I'm appalled at the careless attitude that the younger generation seems to take towards education.)

(we really need a "standing ovation" emoticon).

ith:

[Father Bill]

And add to all this... 50% of all people are below average in intelligence.