Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

**Tobus** · 20th June 12, 06:54 AM

Yes, I understand that this is par for the course with Scottish kiltmakers. But American kiltmakers don't operate that way. And since these fellows were wearing box-pleated kilts, I am going to assume that they were made by an American kiltmaker.

**SlackerDrummer** · 20th June 12, 07:16 AM

Unless Matt got the bulk order -- which he would know about -- I find it VERY unlikely that any pipe band here in the States would have low yardage box-pleated kilts. Military box pleats maybe and even that seems unlikely. I think OCRichard will back me up on this, but the pipe band community is a very "inside the box" community when it comes to their kit. They are most likely going to be wearing 8-yard, knife pleated kilts, the only variations being pleating to the sett v. stripe (and of course the choice of tartan).

**creagdhubh** · 20th June 12, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by SlackerDrummer

Unless Matt got the bulk order -- which he would know about -- I find it VERY unlikely that any pipe band here in the States would have low yardage box-pleated kilts. Military box pleats maybe and even that seems unlikely. I think OCRichard will back me up on this, but the pipe band community is a very "inside the box" community when it comes to their kit. They are most likely going to be wearing 8-yard, knife pleated kilts, the only variations being pleating to the sett v. stripe (and of course the choice of tartan).

Well put, Kenneth. I couldn't agree more.

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 20th June 12, 02:04 PM

I agree it's very much a long shot that these would be pipe band kilts. What got me thinking in that direction is that pipers are one group that I know of where I frequently encounter kilt wearers ignorant about their particular kilt. "It's the band kilt," is a common refrain I hear, meaning they don't know the tartan, how it's pleated, how heavy or light it is, the maker, etc. (Not all pipers are like this, of course, but I certainly do find this more among pipers than general kilt wearers).

But it does not have to be a pipe band per se. Perhaps these folks belonged to a group that reenacted a regiment, or even civilians, from the late 19th century? Six yard box pleated kilts would not have been unusual for that time, and it could be the group's quarter master had their kilts made that way accordingly. But individual members simply knew it was "their kilt" and nothing more.

Of course this is all just fun speculation.

**Spartan Tartan** · 20th June 12, 04:13 PM

LT--I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct and they are in fact 4 yards and they are misinformed or mistaken thinking 6 yds. Not being one to "call out" someone about their kilt, I just let their comments stand as they were. We are not talking about close friends of mine, so having a few pints isn't worth debating the actual content of their kilts.

Matt/Paul--To be fair, it is 4 ;-) I am the 5th of the group. I will certainly ask the question about how/where they got their kilts next time we gather together. I never really, honestly, thought much of it. I did think it odd it was being in a knife pleat that was a-typical. To be honest, it got me wondering if box pleats were more common than I had previously thought.

As to the quality of construction, I would be in no place to judge a quality box pleat as compared to a poorly done box pleat. But if I had to, I'd suspect they were not made by a highly skilled or trained kilt maker. But I can certainly tell a box from a knife pleat. I do believe they all got their kilts in a group purchase of some sort...second hand, made by mom, what have you. Perhaps they did get them from a local pipe band when they were replacing the bands kilts???

Unless they have specifically withheld information from me, I don't think they are pipers. In fairness, when I say "know", I rather mean "people that I have gathered with on a couple occasions for drinks." But in truth, not a one of them know I am in the Navy....sooooo....

Now I am truly intrigued and will find out and share what I find. And for LiTrog, to confirm amount of material I may even bring a ruler and take some measurements of the edge length of their kilts...but not until far enough into the evening that this somehow actually "be appropriate"! LOL

**Spartan Tartan** · 20th June 12, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by SlackerDrummer

Unless Matt got the bulk order -- which he would know about -- I find it VERY unlikely that any pipe band here in the States would have low yardage box-pleated kilts. Military box pleats maybe and even that seems unlikely. I think OCRichard will back me up on this, but the pipe band community is a very "inside the box" community when it comes to their kit. They are most likely going to be wearing 8-yard, knife pleated kilts, the only variations being pleating to the sett v. stripe (and of course the choice of tartan).

To be fair...they could have been a military box pleat from what this thread has taught me. In that case, perhaps they stumbled upon a clearance of MBP kilts and just said, "That would be fun to go pubbing in!!!" I can assure the Rabble here, that these Gents would be lost in any conversation that went beyond "the pleated part goes to the rear". Finer points of Traditional kilt wear is NOT a topic of conversation...

Again...now I am truly interested and will be asking about where/how they came to have their kilts.

**Nick the DSM** · 20th June 12, 10:22 PM

I own a Black Watch military kilt, 8yds and "military" box pleats. It hangs great, swings nice and I haven't had to iron it. Though I only wear it in the winter due to 18oz wool.

I can't think of any benefits of it over knife or box pleated though.

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 21st June 12, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Nick the DSM

I own a Black Watch military kilt, 8yds and "military" box pleats. It hangs great, swings nice and I haven't had to iron it. Though I only wear it in the winter due to 18oz wool.

Then I think you own an Argyll & Sutherland military kilt. :-)

The A&S and Black Watch both wore the same tartan, but pleated differently. One difference is that the A&S kilts were box pleated, while the Black Watch were knife pleated. They were also pleated to different stripes. Also, prior to sometime in the early 80s the A&S kilts were a slightly lighter shade, but after 1983 (I think) they went to the same shades for both regiments.

Just a bit of interesting trivia for your morning!

**LitTrog** · 21st June 12, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan Tartan

And for LiTrog, to confirm amount of material I may even bring a ruler and take some measurements of the edge length of their kilts...but not until far enough into the evening that this somehow actually "be appropriate"! LOL

I know the rule is "pics or it didn't happen!"

This, I think, requires an uppage of our requirements--video documentation of this event is a must!

**Riverkilt** · 21st June 12, 06:58 AM

So now I'm thinking of having my kiltmaker hand sew my Federal Memorial tartan tank with military box pleats so I can see for myself what they are....or what the Keith Kilt School called military box pleats and maybe get some idea why they required a special course in sewing what they called military box pleat.

I can look at photos and strain to see, I can look at sketches and ponder to understand, but it ain't the same as having one on hand to refer to...and strap on....and then "know." Well, at least one outfits "definition."

I've always thought that since my kiltmaker graduated from that school, but then later flew back to Scotland for the express purpose of taking a special Military Box Pleat course and getting a certificate in it, that military box pleats are something extra special.

Up to me to fork over the dinero and see for myself.