Blazon questions

[FatherWilliam57]

Since the blazon is the legal description of the arms, the positioning of all charges must be clearly stated to avoid any possibility of confusion. Hence the use of the terms "in chief" or "in base" when describing charges placed above or below the center point of the shield, in the same way that dexter and sinister are used to describe charges placed to the right or left of the center point.

Although many consider him to be taken far too seriously, I have generally followed the advice of Fox-Davies: "The position of the charges need not be specified when they would naturally fall into a certain position with regard to the ordinaries," in this case, the fess. I also like the old rule concerning blazons using as few words as possible to get the description across. I find there is a certain elegance in brevity. No matter...

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Although many consider him to be taken far too seriously, I have generally followed the advice of Fox-Davies: "The position of the charges need not be specified when they would naturally fall into a certain position with regard to the ordinaries," in this case, the fess. I also like the old rule concerning blazons using as few words as possible to get the description across. I find there is a certain elegance in brevity. No matter...

Despite Fox-Davies prolific outpouring of heraldic treatises, during his life time neither the College of Arms, nor the Ulster King of Arms saw fit to employ him as a herald, despite his frequent requests for appointment to those Offices of Arms. Generally speaking his historical research was, for the times, first rate. Where his work sometimes falters is in expressing opinions that, then and now, may be at variance with the precision required when creating the blazon found in a letters patent, which is, after all, a legal document giving title to a coat of arms and therefor must be exact in describing those arms.

While I agree with Shakespeare that "brevity is the soul of wit", you'd be surprised at the number of half wits out there who can make a real dog's dinner out of a coat of arms, even when given the most precise of blazons.

[Scout]

... What I question is having the torse and the mantling not match each other. Is not one just an extension of the other? ...

That's a good question. Should the torse and the mantling match? I did the torse to match the colors of the shield.

Which is correct?

[saharris]

"Riamh Nar Dhruid O Spairn Lann" is from the Civil War era flag of the 69th New York of the famed Irish Brigade (commanded by an ancestor, Robert Nugent). The translation is: "Who never retreats from the clash of spears."

Very interesting, thank you!

That's a good question. Should the torse and the mantling match? I did the torse to match the colors of the shield.

Which is correct?

I was under the impression that (back when such things were actually worn) the torse and mantling were made of the same materials - thus matching each other. Heraldically speaking, you may choose whatever color-metal combination that you'd like for your torse and mantling, but I think that they should match each other.

[FatherWilliam57]

While I agree with Shakespeare that "brevity is the soul of wit", you'd be surprised at the number of half wits out there who can make a real dog's dinner out of a coat of arms, even when given the most precise of blazons.

LOL Unfortunately, I think we've all seen far too many of those emblazonments!

[Scout]

...I was under the impression that (back when such things were actually worn) the torse and mantling were made of the same materials - thus matching each other...

I was following the guidance found on the American Heraldry Society's site: " ... the crest is usually depicted as joined to the helmet with a circlet of twisted cloth, called a wreath or torse. The norm in the United States is to show the torse as a twisted band, with three twists of the principal metal from the shield alternating with three twists of the principal color, starting with a twist of metal at the dexter side ..."

Any thoughts from our other resident Heralds?

[SlackerDrummer]

I was under the impression that (back when such things were actually worn) the torse and mantling were made of the same materials - thus matching each other. Heraldically speaking, you may choose whatever color-metal combination that you'd like for your torse and mantling, but I think that they should match each other.

I was following the guidance found on the American Heraldry Society's site: " ... the crest is usually depicted as joined to the helmet with a circlet of twisted cloth, called a wreath or torse. The norm in the United States is to show the torse as a twisted band, with three twists of the principal metal from the shield alternating with three twists of the principal color, starting with a twist of metal at the dexter side ..."

Any thoughts from our other resident Heralds?

No sense in second guessing. It only takes a quick look at the exemplifications of the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland to see that it is still common practice to have mantling that is Gules doubled Argent with a torse that is the primary metal and color from the arms.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

No sense in second guessing. It only takes a quick look at the exemplifications of the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland to see that it is still common practice to have mantling that is Gules doubled Argent with a torse that is the primary metal and color from the arms.

Quite correct, although if so requested by the petitioner both the mantling and the wreath may be of any reasonable combination of colours provided they conform to the rules of heraldry.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I was under the impression that (back when such things were actually worn) the torse and mantling were made of the same materials - thus matching each other.

The mantle and wreath are two separate items. While there are all sorts of theories as to the use of the mantle and where it came from, the wreath had but one function: to cover and protect the method of attaching the crest to the top of a tilting helm. As such the colours used may have had some heraldic significance but could equally have been nothing more than a gay adornment adopted for a specific tournament.

Heraldically speaking, you may choose whatever color-metal combination that you'd like for your torse and mantling, but I think that they should match each other.

Here I would differ in my opinion. I think that having mantling and wreath match is really contrary to the technicolour spirit of heraldry. I would far prefer to see both the wreath and mantling compliment the full achievement of arms, each with it's own unique set of colours, rather than have the mantling merely droop down from under the crest.

[creagdhubh]

LOL Unfortunately, I think we've all seen far too many of those emblazonments!

I couldn't agree more!