Irish Kilt?

[Meggers]

Hey everybody,

I am ashamed to say that I know very little about Irish and Scottish history IN Ireland and Scotland. I can talk for days about the Irish-American experience, but I can talk about about 5 seconds about Irish history. Therefore, I wanted to ask my wonderfully knowledgeable boardmates if they could share with me some information about what role the kilt plays (if any role at all) in Ireland and if the Irish ever wore them, or why Irish-Americans wear them to represent Ireland.

The kilt has always seemed like a Scottish garment to me and when I put on my tartan, I wear it to represent my Scottish heritage, but I have my skirt made with County Derry tartan--an Irish tartan. To me, it was made to represent both sides of my heritage. However, another member pointed out a piece of history that I forgot about: that Irish and Scottish relations were not always friendly and that got the wheels in my brain turning and I wondered if the kilt, or wearing the kilt, was ever affected by that.

Basically, all rambling aside, I was wondering if the Irish wear kilts at all. Is wearing a kilt on St. Patricks Day misrepresenting Ireland by wearing a garment predominantly Scottish? At the end of the day, my Derry tartan skirt is still beloved by me and I wouldnt trade it for any other tartan, but I always love learning a bit about history. Forgive my ignorance as it's truly a bit embarrassing.

[Paul Henry]

Kilts in Ireland (Eire) were not historic, and only came into existence in any real way with the rise of Irish Nationalism and even then it was with a very select group of people, so there isn't any real " old history" of kilts in Ireland. The ranges of Irish tartans were designed more for the american market than the home one, and while today you might see some kilts worn there, it is unusual, and most likely by visitors.
St Patricks Day "Grand celebrations" are really American, although beginning to be seen in other places as well, so yet again kilts are not really featured.

[Meggers]

^

Thats pretty on par with what I just read in wikipedia (ah, wikipedia.)

Though the origins of the Irish kilt continue to be a subject of debate, current evidence suggests that kilts originated in the Scottish Highlands and Isles and were adopted by Irish nationalists at the turn of the 20th century as a symbol of Celtic identity.[11]

A garment that has often been mistaken for kilts in early depictions is the Irish 'Lein-croich', a long tunic traditionally made from solid colour cloth, with black, saffron and green being the most widely used colours. Solid coloured kilts were first adopted for use by Irish nationalists and thereafter by Irish regiments serving in the British Army, but they could often be seen in late 19th and early 20th century photos in Ireland especially at political and musical gatherings, as the kilt was re-adopted as a symbol of Gaelic nationalism in Ireland during this period.[11]

Within the world of Irish dancing, boy's kilts have been largely abandoned, especially since the worldwide popularity of Riverdance and the revival and interest in Irish dancing generally.[12]

So, I really hope that I dont step into dangerous territory here, but if I do, I ask that I am forgiven as I am asking these questions so that I can learn. But I wonder what role the kilt plays in Irish communities that are not fans of the British. When I think of Britain, I think of 3 (and kinda 4) independent countries with independent histories, languages, and culture, but I know that sometimes Wales, Scotland and England are just lumped together and judged as one solid body. Since that sometimes happens, is the kilt ever viewed as being a British garment and, being judged as such, is it ever rejected in Irish communities that are not friendly towards the British?

To the Scots that I know and have spoken to, the kilt represents Scotland, not Britain. Therefore, to have the kilt representing Celtic and Gaelic history in both Ireland and Scotland is understandable to me and I see why Irish Republicans would embrace it themselves as well--as they are also Celtic and speakers of the Gaelic language. But I can also see why it would be rejected as sometimes Scotland is lumped in with being judged solely as British and, on that note, I wonder if the kilt, in Republican communities, is seen as a British garment and not embraced.

Again, sorry for the politics. I ask so I can learn.

[Tobus]

Yep, it seems that the kilt as a symbol of Irishness is a product of a marketing effort into "pan-Celtic" sentimentality. The Irish themselves never really adopted the idea except for a few ardent fanatics, and some military units.

But that doesn't really matter, does it? Here in the USA, where you live, wearing a kilt to represent Irish descent will be perfectly acceptable. In fact, when I'm out and about in my kilt, the most frequent question I'm asked is whether I'm Irish.

[Paul Henry]

I'm not entirely sure I understand, but some thoughts.
The kilt in the UK is thought of as Scottish, not English or Welsh or Cornish or Manx or even Irish ( although there are kilts for all parts of those regions)so I'd be surprised at it being thought of as British. I grew up in Northern Ireland and they were very rare things, we knew about them , but only thought of them a Scottish, and actually not even all of Scotland but more of the Highlands.
I confess to being a little bemused that other nations have taken the kilt onboard as in some sense part of their history or culture, but jsut to be clear, I'm in no way against anyone wearing a kilt, it sometimes seem a little odd to be known as "pan celtic" when historically it was only ever seen in a very small part of a small country.

[Meggers]

I'm not entirely sure I understand, but some thoughts.
The kilt in the UK is thought of as Scottish, not English or Welsh or Cornish or Manx or even Irish ( although there are kilts for all parts of those regions)so I'd be surprised at it being thought of as British. I grew up in Northern Ireland and they were very rare things, we knew about them , but only thought of them a Scottish, and actually not even all of Scotland but more of the Highlands.
I confess to being a little bemused that other nations have taken the kilt onboard as in some sense part of their history or culture, but jsut to be clear, I'm in no way against anyone wearing a kilt, it sometimes seem a little odd to be known as "pan celtic" when historically it was only ever seen in a very small part of a small country.

That makes a lot of sense Thank you

[Meggers]

Yep, it seems that the kilt as a symbol of Irishness is a product of a marketing effort into "pan-Celtic" sentimentality. The Irish themselves never really adopted the idea except for a few ardent fanatics, and some military units.

But that doesn't really matter, does it? Here in the USA, where you live, wearing a kilt to represent Irish descent will be perfectly acceptable. In fact, when I'm out and about in my kilt, the most frequent question I'm asked is whether I'm Irish.

It kind of matters to me, though, since I like to really know my history and why I have what I have. Thank you for sharing this info with me, though. One question: Who are the fanatics? Fanatics of what?

[cessna152towser]

One question: Who are the fanatics? Fanatics of what?

I hope by fanatics the previous poster was referring to those of us who are fanatics of kilts.
I am 25% Irish, having one grandparent whose family came from County Armagh and I have a kilt in County Armagh tartan which I have worn out and about in Northern Ireland and in Eire. I have to say that the kilt turns more heads in Ireland where it is not seen as an every day garment. Nobody in County Armagh has ever recognised the modern, non-traditional County Armagh tartan as their own district tartan.

[Phil]

Kilt-wearing is undoubtedly Scottish in origin. Prior to fairly recent times the only kilts you would have seen outwith Scotland would have been local pipe bands or occasional ex-pat Scottish groups having a celebration.
In the last 20 years or so, however, kilts have become more widely worn and examples of this are the various Irish and Welsh tartans which have been created to fill this demand. They have no basis in historical fact, however, and have been created principally to satisfy a desire to wear what is a unique and distinctive form of dress. There are no doubt various reasons for this, some of which it is perhaps best not to go into too deeply. Suffice it to say that highland dress can provide an acceptable alternative to trousers (pants) while providing a robust rebuttal to the inevitable negative responses that unconventional clothing can provoke.
The history of Ireland is a long and circuitous path, full of traps for the unwary, and not really one suited to this Forum, bearing in mind the inevitable pitfalls which are bound to arise due to the entrenched views held by the protagonists of either side. Kilt-wearing, however, has never been a feature of Irish life and is still, to this day, a very marginal thing, usually reserved for the odd wedding. This is a little surprising given the close association between Scotland and Ireland over the centuries. Gallowglasses served as mercenary soldiers with the Irish but their clothing didn’t seem to catch on there. The MacDonalds and O’Donnells were virtually one and the same with close ties between Antrim and the western isles but they did not import kilts to Ireland. The Plantation of Ulster consisted mainly of individuals from the Scottish borders and Ayrshire, none of whom counted kilt-wearing amongst their normal attire so they would not have imported kilts.
Nowadays it is difficult to be dogmatic, however kilts and kilt-wearing are very much seen as the province of pipe bands although these can be found equally across the religious divide there.

[Tobus]

One question: Who are the fanatics? Fanatics of what?

By that, I mean some of the people who were (or are still) pushing for the "pan-Celtic" movement or a reinvention of Irish nationalism. One that comes to mind is William Gibson, 2nd Baron Ashbourne (see that thread for some discussion of him). His wiki page is here.