Irish Kilt?

[auld argonian]

Appreciated Kiltbook's post about the place of the kilt in Irish Dancing. I will take you back to the 1960's when I was in grammar school in a predominantly Irish-American neighborhood and several of my classmates participated in Irish Dancing. The boys did wear solid color (dark blue, I think) kilts and, kids in Chicago being what they are/were, got a lot of sh*t about it...just so those of you who get sh*t about showing up in a kilt don't think that it's a recent invention. I figured that it was part of the uniform and that it was odd that it wasn't tartan but whatever...

The girl's outfits were very nice and NOT these neon-day-glo shock troop things that they wear today...nor were there the springy, curly unnaturally red wigs that seem to be standard issue today. Actually, the old outfits were lovely green and white and blue with simple celtic patterns embroidered on them and the girls wore dark tights instead of the white socks...hair just held back by a band...very simple and classy and nice.

So now you see what happens when you live in the Post-Riverdance-Irish-Step-Dancing-Zombie-Apocalypse!

Best

AA

[OC Richard]

Here's the Irish kilt thing in a nutshell.

At the time of the English invasions, the Irish were wearing a traditional form of dress which luckily there are a number of contemporary illustrations of.

Here it is in 1521



It consisted of a large loose shirt called in the Irish language leine which was often dyed in a saffron colour, a light clear yellow. Worn with the leine was a short jacket with open sleeves and ruffs around the bottom called in Irish the ionar, and a cloak, heavy wool and fringed, called the brat. The ionar was often embroidered with interlace designs.

The English however were successful in stamping out this dress and imposing English dress upon the Irish. The traditional Irish dress became utterly exinct, with only a couple bits surviving such as the pamputai and crois of the Aran Islanders.

Fast forward to the late 19th century when many in Ireland were struggling to revive the Irish language and in general distance themselves from English culture. With the Irish language they were a bit late, the famine and the English radically reducing the number of native speakers, and today the language stuggles on the edge of extinction as a community tongue. With sport the Irish were wildly successful, with hurling and Gaelic Football becoming more popular than English football.

In matters of dress, attempts to revive the extinct traditional Irish costume of leine, brat, and ionar pretty much fell flat. One problem is that it seems that nobody in the late 19th century really understood the nature of these garment and how they were constructed. They mistook the bottom of the leine for a yellow kilt by false analogy with Highland Dress.

So here's Irish Nationalist Thomas Ashe in 1910 wearing some sort of kilt pleated all round.



This photo posted earlier clearly demonstrates how the revivalists misunderstood the traditional dress they were attempting to revive. Note that the leine and ionar have been conflated, with the ionar disappearing but its colour and embroidery ending up on the leine. And where did those huge collars come from? Nothing like that in the original costume.



Here we can clearly see the saffron bottom of the ancient shirt (leine) becoming detached and turned into a kilt. By the way, the colour of the traditional Irish leine was a clear pure light yellow, but for some unknown reason the revivalists made the colour darker and more of a "burnt orange"

[McElmurry]

The fact that Nationalists adopted the kilt is completely irrelevant to the mission of this forum. We should be helping all who come to this site identify a tartan they can relate to and enjoy wearing be they German, Muslim, Peruvian, Firefighters, Clergy, or Marines. The list goes on and on and yes the list does include the Irish and Irish diaspora.

The fact that the kilt gets conflated with Irishness is unfortunate from a historical perspective but I suspect the Irish and Irish diaspora are now the second largest group of kilt wearers so I don’t see the confusion abating anytime soon.

The majority of Irish and Irish diaspora kilt wearers on this site are doing exactly what many Scottish traditionalists want them to do which is wearing a regional or other Irish themed tartan in smart fashion and not pretending to be Scottish.

Finally, squabbling among ourselves is not going to educate the legendary geographically challenged “Americans”.

[Meggers]

Well, here we go again.

Firstly, let me point out that this is X Marks the SCOT.

.

Your post was all well and fine, but what was this part for?

[Meggers]

The fact that Nationalists adopted the kilt is completely irrelevant to the mission of this forum. We should be helping all who come to this site identify a tartan they can relate to and enjoy wearing be they German, Muslim, Peruvian, Firefighters, Clergy, or Marines. The list goes on and on and yes the list does include the Irish and Irish diaspora.

The fact that the kilt gets conflated with Irishness is unfortunate from a historical perspective but I suspect the Irish and Irish diaspora are now the second largest group of kilt wearers so I don’t see the confusion abating anytime soon.

The majority of Irish and Irish diaspora kilt wearers on this site are doing exactly what many Scottish traditionalists want them to do which is wearing a regional or other Irish themed tartan in smart fashion and not pretending to be Scottish.

Finally, squabbling among ourselves is not going to educate the legendary geographically challenged “Americans”.

I also dont understand the point of this post here. There is nothing wrong with learning about the origins of a piece of traditional clothing. I dont ask to know these things so that I can answer future questions from people since I dont ever expect to have those questions asked. I simply enjoy learning about POV from long ago and the history of the garment that I plan to be wearing.

I also dont consider myself a geographically challenged American. ;) Maybe some are, but it's certainly not a nice label to put on the entire group.

[Tobus]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see any 'squabbling' going on. Just an earnest attempt by all to understand the true history and development of what is known today (by some) to be the Irish kilt. Education and knowledge are never bad things. Just because this forum is supportive of kilt-wearing doesn't mean we should encourage misinformation. Folks who wear Irish tartans or Irish kilts are better served by knowing where they came from and why, even if it isn't what they thought.

[Zardoz]

Since this horse is getting beaten again now, whatever will we discuss in February and March?
Or is the Irish kilt thread bi-annual now?
I'm not going to participate again in any event.

[Mael Coluim]

Just a reminder what this Forum is about:

Mission Statement

This site is a place where our members can enjoy the company of all other fellow kilt wearers. We wish to provide a place where those who choose to wear the kilt can find friendship, information, guidance, advice, and share their kilt experiences with others.

This is a Kilt Forum. Our members come here to learn about, discuss and share a love for the kilt. This is not a Scottish specific forum nor is it a highland wear specific forum, just as it is not a modern wear specific forum. We keep our focus on the kilt. It is what brings us here and what makes this forum unique in the world. .

As we all wish to have access to the kilts and accessories offered by various manufacturers and retailers we accept a select few who are trusted and known to provide quality, value and service, to present their products to our members.


Our guiding principles will always be;

“We agree to conduct ourselves as the Ladies and Gentlemen of X Marks.” This site has always been a place where our members treat each other in a polite and respectful, open and honest manner at all times.

“We assume and expect our members to act as responsible adults”. Adults don't need to be forced to follow rules. They have developed a sense of right and wrong. They know when a subject is appropriate or not. We expect our members to take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences for those actions.

Mael for the XMTS Staff

[Meggers]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see any 'squabbling' going on. Just an earnest attempt by all to understand the true history and development of what is known today (by some) to be the Irish kilt. Education and knowledge are never bad things. Just because this forum is supportive of kilt-wearing doesn't mean we should encourage misinformation. Folks who wear Irish tartans or Irish kilts are better served by knowing where they came from and why, even if it isn't what they thought.

I completely agree. No political statements are being made, no sides are being taken, no one's feelings are hurt, etc. It's just my desire to learn about what role the kilt played in Ireland Thanks to eveyrone who helped me learn a thing or two.

No one's knickers need to get twisted on this topic. If you cannot teach someone basic history without getting offended and mad, then it's really not my problem. *shrug* simple as that.

[opositive]

i primarily wear kilts because they are cool and comfortable. i also like history and feel part of history by wearing the kilt. kilting encourages me to learn more about european and especially the islands' history.

i have no blood ties to scotland or ireland, and i recognize that the american tradition for both are different than across the atlantic.

since i try not to step on too many toes, i favor universal tartans but prefer irish tartans as a personal preference (plus i have had a greater influence from irish friends)(i do not try too hard to dissuade them from their belief that the kilt is an irish creation since i like to have free rounds bought for me).

as others have stated, regardless of the tartan, i definitely get more questions about whether i am irish than scottish where i live. accept that the irish kilt is more of a u.s. phenomenon and kilt on proudly.