Irish Kilt?

[kiltbook]

I did notice, though, the lack of sporrans, which seems to be prevalent with the Irish kilt-wearing style of that era.

Great eye, Tobus, I was taught that wearing a sporran defiles Irish cloth, and that the cloth represents one's Irish blood and ancestry. Saffron and green being Irish cloth. However, after spending time online and on this forum I now know that this is an archaic view. I have purchased a black leather sporran on a silver chain strap, but the things we are taught when we are young are often difficult to part with when we are old. I have worn the sporran with my solid black kilt, but I have NEVER worn it with my solid green kilt for fear that I may defile the cloth.

The prohibition does not apply to Irish tartan kilts, like Irish National, etc., because they are not true Irish cloth.

I know all of this seems stupid to some. Maybe one day I will have enough courage to wear the sporran with any cloth like other kilties.

[themacmartin]

I have a saffron kilt that I wear on St Pats and other similar events. An ancestor of mine is noted to have worn "The garter ribbons hanging at his leg were dyed with Corycian saffron, and with the tint of the Tyrian shell, as was his plaid" in 1689 in a battle under Bonnie Dundee.

[Laighneach]

Here is the still from The Quiet Man with John Wayne's sons wearing kilts:

The clothing worn by the two boys in this picture isn't as far off the mark as some may assume.
Young boys traditionally wore a skirt-like garment, called a "cóta cabhlach" if I recall correctly. This custom lasted longest in places like the Aran Islands.
Caps of the type shown were very common too (still made I think).

[fcgeil]

OK, let's be concise here.
Untrue.
Completely and utterly untrue.



Untrue, and I mean, really untrue.


Pearce's writings give a date of 1900, so, technically, that may place the concept of the Irish kilt in the 20th century.
Again, untrue. The Scots did not get tartan from the Irish. There were solid color kilts in Scotland, but I would not describe them as commonplace.


It's probably unpopular to say these things on here because they are not true.

Again, untrue. Kilt wearers can be seen everyday in Scotland that are not connected in any way with piping or weddings. What a heap o' kak.
If you have any evidence to the contrary, please post your academic references. Most of what you say appears to be in opposition to established Irish and Scottish history, so you may well be breaking new ground.

I beg to differ on one point. Gaelic culture did, indeed, come from Ireland, as did the Gaelic people. I very nearly wrote off your entire post due to the argumentative nature of it, but chose to re-read it anyway before I went off half-cocked. The rest of your comments, while poorly worded and quite abrasive, were correct.

[McElmurry]

I also dont understand the point of this post here. There is nothing wrong with learning about the origins of a piece of traditional clothing. I dont ask to know these things so that I can answer future questions from people since I dont ever expect to have those questions asked. I simply enjoy learning about POV from long ago and the history of the garment that I plan to be wearing.

I also dont consider myself a geographically challenged American. ;) Maybe some are, but it's certainly not a nice label to put on the entire group.

Finally, squabbling among ourselves is not going to educate the legendary geographically challenged “Americans”.

The geographically challenged citizens of the USA include those folks who ask a kiltie if he is Irish and cause him to beat his head against the wall. In the above statement ourselves refers to Xmarkers, which would include you, and the legendary geographically challenged does not include all citizens of the USA, just the folks who are actually geographically challenged.

The fact that the kilt gets conflated with Irishness is unfortunate from a historical perspective but I suspect the Irish and Irish diaspora are now the second largest group of kilt wearers so I don’t see the confusion abating anytime soon.

This statement is informing kilties who are asked about being Irish they should wear a helmet because association of the kilt to Irishness is not likely to die down anytime soon and more brick walls are in their future. If I had a chance to write the statement again I would change historical to Scottish.

We should be helping all who come to this site identify a tartan they can relate to and enjoy wearing be they German, Muslim, Peruvian, Firefighters, Clergy, or Marines. The list goes on and on and yes the list does include the Irish and Irish diaspora.

Xmarks is a friendly place and folks of all nations and walks of life get help with tartan selection. It is only the Irish that are reminded every so often the kilt is the national dress of Scotland and not Ireland. When one side in a discussion holds the high ground and routinely gets the last word it can become annoying regardless of who is right.

[Meggers]

The geographically challenged citizens of the USA include those folks who ask a kiltie if he is Irish and cause him to beat his head against the wall. In the above statement ourselves refers to Xmarkers, which would include you, and the legendary geographically challenged does not include all citizens of the USA, just the folks who are actually geographically challenged.

Oh gotcha. It was without context and I misunderstood. Yes, those individuals ARE geographically challenged

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Xmarks is a friendly place and folks of all nations and walks of life get help with tartan selection. It is only the Irish that are reminded every so often the kilt is the national dress of Scotland and not Ireland. When one side in a discussion holds the high ground and routinely gets the last word it can become annoying regardless of who is right.

In fairness, I think this is simply because there is more confusion on the matter where the Irish are concerned. When a person of German heritage, or Finnish nationality, or who is from Galicia wants to wear the German Heritage, Finnish National, or Galician tartans, the assumption generally is "I want to wear the kilt. I know the kilt is Scottish, but I am not Scottish, I am _____. So I am wearing this tartan to reflect my own ethnic heritage, while I am in Scottish dress." Whereas many people who wear Irish tartans begin with the assumption, "I am Irish, so I want to wear a kilt to honor my Irish heritage."

Very few people have the experience of walking down the streets of an American city in their kilt and being asked, "Are you Swiss?" or "You must be Dutch!"

But how many of us have lost count of the number of times we have been asked, "Are you Irish?" when wearing the kilt?

Also, unlike many of the other countries you mention, the kilt actually does have place in Irish history, although a somewhat smaller one than many people assume.

All of this adds up to mean that we have more opportunities to talk about the history of "the Irish kilt" than we do about kilt wearing in any of these other countries. So why shouldn't the topic come up with semi-regularity?

[Chas]

I have worn the sporran with my solid black kilt, but I have NEVER worn it with my solid green kilt for fear that I may defile the cloth.
The prohibition does not apply to Irish tartan kilts, like Irish National, etc., because they are not true Irish cloth.
I know all of this seems stupid to some. Maybe one day I will have enough courage to wear the sporran with any cloth like other kilties.

"Defile the cloth"

You are joking, aren't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatulence

Regards

Chas

[Geoff Withnell]

Matt,
Your problem is that you are entirely too sensible and logical .

[macwilkin]

In fairness, I think this is simply because there is more confusion on the matter where the Irish are concerned. When a person of German heritage, or Finnish nationality, or who is from Galicia wants to wear the German Heritage, Finnish National, or Galician tartans, the assumption generally is "I want to wear the kilt. I know the kilt is Scottish, but I am not Scottish, I am _____. So I am wearing this tartan to reflect my own ethnic heritage, while I am in Scottish dress." Whereas many people who wear Irish tartans begin with the assumption, "I am Irish, so I want to wear a kilt to honor my Irish heritage."

Very few people have the experience of walking down the streets of an American city in their kilt and being asked, "Are you Swiss?" or "You must be Dutch!"

But how many of us have lost count of the number of times we have been asked, "Are you Irish?" when wearing the kilt?

Also, unlike many of the other countries you mention, the kilt actually does have place in Irish history, although a somewhat smaller one than many people assume.

All of this adds up to mean that we have more opportunities to talk about the history of "the Irish kilt" than we do about kilt wearing in any of these other countries. So why shouldn't the topic come up with semi-regularity?

I'll second my co-author's comments here and add that by attempting to determine the facts behind the Irish adoption of Highland attire, we are in no ways saying the Irish shouldn't wear kilts. If anything, the real history behind Irish kilts is just as fascinating than the storied myths that have grown up over the years.

As a historian by vocation & avocation, I frequently hear people dismiss my work as meaningless and irrelevant. As a genealogical librarian, I saw people become openly hostile when primary sources disproved family legends. It is hard to hear such comments and see such actions, but as a historian, my responsibility is to be as accurate and objective as possible, whilst also pragmatically accepting that humans are not perfect and objective.

INMHO, there is nothing wrong with having this discussion repeatedly regarding the history of Irish kilts & tartans.

T.