But is it still a kilt?

[BCAC]

(Moderators, if this should go in the contemporary kilt forum, feel free to move it, but the question I am asking is I think more general)

Utilikilts has a "New Standard" model.

http://www.utilikilts.com/company/pr.../new-standard/

It is NOT a wrap garment, but a pull on. It does NOT have an integral flat front apron.

Since I have always taken the minimum definition of a kilt as a wrapped garment, the portion below the waist coming approximately to the knees, with pleats at the sides and back, and overlapping flat aprons in front; I would say this is not a kilt.

Not trying to start an argument, altho I recognize the possibility. Just trying to figure where kilts end and other MUGS begin.

It's NOT a kilt, it's a man's skirt.

[OC Richard]

I enjoyed making my woodland camoflage kilt and wearing it.

That's great. I've loved the look of camo Utilikilts from the very first time I saw one. For whatever reason, traditionalist that I am, utility kilts just look great in camo.

But I was talking, I suppose, from a language standpoint. When I see men in Utilikilts walking around (which I do, at work, on a regular basis) I'll say " hey I just saw a guy in a Utilikilt" (right enough, because 99% of what we see are Utilikilts, or Utilikilt knockoffs) but if I saw a guy in a traditional kilt I would say "hey I just saw a guy in a kilt".

That's not putting a value judgement on anything, just making a distinction in language. For me the unhyphenated word "kilt" conjures up a traditional wool thing, anything else requiring a hyphen or prefix.

[David Thorpe]

David,
With the greatest of respect, I fear I must differ with you.

And I am grateful that we have this place where that is entirely acceptable!

...However, I think the length of this thread demonstrates we do not have a "well-established and nearly universally understood" definition for the kilt, which considering that is the interest we have in common, is somewhat mind-boggling.

What I meant by "well-established and nearly universally understood" was the very broad (IMO) definition of "kilt" and, misnomer that I believe it is, "contemporary kilt" here on Xmarks.

I am amazed, given the wide range of opinions, motivations, backgrounds, etc. represented here, that the place holds together at all without spontaneously combusting into one huge fireball. Credit the tolerance and courtesy of the overwhelming majority of the rabble.

Cheers,

[Geoff Withnell]

And I am grateful that we have this place where that is entirely acceptable!



What I meant by "well-established and nearly universally understood" was the very broad (IMO) definition of "kilt" and, misnomer that I believe it is, "contemporary kilt" here on Xmarks.

I am amazed, given the wide range of opinions, motivations, backgrounds, etc. represented here, that the place holds together at all without spontaneously combusting into one huge fireball. Credit the tolerance and courtesy of the overwhelming majority of the rabble.

Cheers,

Agreed. And well said, Sir!

[Deirachel]

I have to throw in my hat with Mr. Withnell.

When I see a traditional kilt (hand sewn, machine, wool, pv, acrylic, wee, phillebeg, great), I say "cool a kilt".

When I see a Utilikilt, Alt Kilt, X-kilts et. al., I say "cool a kilt".

To me, the definition of kilt is approximately knee-length, somehow pleated lower unbifurcated garment for a man (or masculine gender identifier, be it for a kilt band, or female-to-male pre-op), which lays along the leg. If I see the same item worn by a woman (or femine gender identifier), I think "kilted skirt" IF it attaches via the strap method I associate with the traditional kilt (otherwise, it's just a pleated skirt). Does this mean the kilts Barb or Heather or Pleater or..... make for themselves or other females are not kilts? Nope. Just my brain doesn't go there when I first see them, unless they are in a pipe band. I know the "history" of the Utilikilt says it's not a kilt, but a MUG. But, if it's not, why the heck use the word "kilt" in the name, instead of marketing it as "M.U.G."? Why give it pleats? It's a modern kilt, combining the more traditional style with cargo shorts. Without pleats, I think surong, mumu, lungi, fustanella, or lava-lava.

The argument of "I think of the traditional kilt as 'the kilt' and others as not" doesn't ring true to/for me. For ease of communication, traditional kilt commonly gets called "kilt". But, the meaning is found in the context clues what type of kilt we are talking about; it's like the interrogative sentence structure. In such, the subject ("you") is not written/spoken, but it is still there. I don't have to tell my kid to "You leave!" when I am mad at her. I just look at her, point, and say "Go!". The same applies to "traditional kilt" in the parts of the forums which apply. We say traditional kilt to differ from other kilts (great/phillabeg, or the contemporary with pockets and possibly not leather belts, or the modern with cargo pockets zippers and all.) On the contemporary forums, we take the time to type out "traditional" or other adjective.

Lets bring the analogy back to clothes, but away from kilts.

Think about "shirt". On a t-shirt forum, we would assume I mean t-shirts. On a button-down collar dress shirt forum, we are talking about a type of dress shirt. But, I don't have to say "button-down collar dress shirt" or "t-shirt" every time, nor would I talk about a Hawaiian shirt without adding the adjective. At the same time, I won't wear a button down shirt (I find the button down ugly). It doesn't mean you (general) wearing a button down collar is bad. It just means you and I have different tastes in clothes.

Which is a good thing.

[McElmurry]

It is a kilt but it is not the kilt.

For clarity sake may I suggest we call it...

the control top kilt.

[tundramanq]

Thanks McElmurry - you put your finger on it for me.
The control top hits on what I couldn't figure out about this design that I don't care for - the top tends to look corset tight. I wear my kilts, (all of them), pretty snug to keep em from falling off my hips and they still look loose and free flowing. This does bring to mind a corset with a tu tu look because of the fitted top / shortened loose pleat section. Might work on some body / gender types, but not here.
The fact that the pictured kilt is too tight and forcing a "muffin top" on the model doesn't help the image at all.

The design is putting emphasis on the waist hip ratio. The small waist big hips thing is something the gals want but not the guys (IMHO). This is starting the pleats right at the hips and topping it with the cargo pockets just adding to the bulk. Kind of kills any masculine profile image aspirations it may have had. Never seen a classic Greek statue of a guy with a huge can.

[nagod]

looking at it again,it looks like a female version of a mans utilikilt.

[Joe I]

looking at it again,it looks like a female version of a mans utilikilt.

+ 1

[Skiballa]

Or like the men's version of a women's scooter skirt