Irish Kilt?

[CMcG]

...the fascination for me has been the significance that the kilt seems to have achieved as a symbol of Irish culture among north Americans when celebrating what they believe to be their ancestry. That it should be associated with green-coloured beer and other strange manifestations of an imaginary created culture does not lend a great deal of credence to the legitimacy of this however...

Once a diaspora has been separated from the homeland for long enough, a lot of things change and evolve. It's not just the Irish either. Apparently the Ren Faire atmosphere of some North American Highland games has equally little to do with practice in Scotland

While the origins of the Irish kilt are historically rooted in the romantic imaginary of the Gaelic revival, I assure you that hypenated-Irish culture abroad is not a figment of your -- or their -- imagination. No more, anyway, than Lowlanders embracing the Highland kilt. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but they have little more history of such than the Irish

Don't get me wrong; I have no misgivings towards anyone who would like to wear the kilt

Some people wear the kilt purely for style or comfort, but often people attach more meaning to it. There is a whole sliding scale from myths and legends to thin and misty rationalizations; the marketing machine of the Highland attire industry and imagined communities, national or otherwise; and of course family connections direct or indirect.

I see kilt wearing kind of like Santa Claus. We know rationally that he isn't real and can't fly all over the world in a sleigh pulled by reindeer, but it is fun to believe in him anyway and enjoy Christmas traditions for what they are worth. Thanks to the efforts of our resident historians and experts, Xmarkers should be fairly well educated about kilt history and facts, but that doesn't stop people from all different levels of "legitimacy" from enjoying the kilt.

[Phil]

While the origins of the Irish kilt are historically rooted in the romantic imaginary of the Gaelic revival, I assure you that hypenated-Irish culture abroad is not a figment of your -- or their -- imagination. No more, anyway, than Lowlanders embracing the Highland kilt. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but they have little more history of such than the Irish

Unfortunately the link you provided requires a password but I do appreciate where you are coming from - namely the legitimacy of anyone outwith a small, prescribed area of Scotland wearing a kilt. Presumably the article does not differentiate between actual residents of 'The Highlands' and those who have relocated to other, less favoured, areas of Scotland, such as the Lowlands for example.

Don't get me wrong; I have no misgivings towards anyone who would like to wear the kilt

These are my sentiments entirely. I couldn't agree more but the impression that I have gleaned, however, is not to do with the validity or otherwise of those who choose to wear the kilt but rather that those who assume anyone wearing a kilt must be Irish. This is obviously something deeply-rooted in the mind of many such people. I wonder, perhaps, if it relates to the general misconception found by the British abroad that their country (Great Britain) is regarded by others as consisting of just two countries - England and Ireland. When asked the question on numerous occasions while in America "Are you from England?",no doubt after overhearing my speech, my response "No. Scotland actually" invariably elicits a puzzled look of incomprehension. I am assuming that such individuals do realise that kilts are not an English form of dress so must belong to that other place over there. What's it called? Oh yes - Ireland!

[Phil]

Or perhaps you think the first Gaelic speaker crawled fully formed out of a hole in Mulngavie? Not very likely is it? (Quite apart from the fact that it is in the lowlands).

I am afraid that you are falling into the usual geographical trap when it comes to separating Gaelic speakers from those pesky Lowlanders. Milngavie (pronounced mull - guy) is located in what was historically Buchanan land, granted to them by the Earl of Lennox in the 13th century. In fact Craigend castle just to the north of Milngavie was a home of the Buchanans at one time. I don't need to tell you the history of the Buchanans or their origins in Ulster in the 11th century as I am sure you are fully aware of that but to dismiss Milngavie as you do is quite incorrect. As a matter of fact you will probably find more highlanders and those of highland descent (including Gaelic speakers) in and around Glasgow and its environs than you ever will in what you assume to be 'The Highlands'.

[Peter Crowe]

I am afraid that you are falling into the usual geographical trap when it comes to separating Gaelic speakers from those pesky Lowlanders. Milngavie (pronounced mull - guy) is located in what was historically Buchanan land, granted to them by the Earl of Lennox in the 13th century. In fact Craigend castle just to the north of Milngavie was a home of the Buchanans at one time. I don't need to tell you the history of the Buchanans or their origins in Ulster in the 11th century as I am sure you are fully aware of that but to dismiss Milngavie as you do is quite incorrect. As a matter of fact you will probably find more highlanders and those of highland descent (including Gaelic speakers) in and around Glasgow and its environs than you ever will in what you assume to be 'The Highlands'.

I totally agree Phil, about the Highland/Gaelic population of Glasgow and it's environs. I have had mixed reactions to wearing the kilt in the Dear Green Place but I always put that down to factors such as family or neighbourhood practice and culture. Amongst my family and their friends in and around Glasgow wearing THCD was if not universal far from unusual or remarkable. As to the Highland (and Hebridean) influence on the City, evidence of that can be found in the humorous collections of short stories by Neil Munro (Para Handy Tales etc.) as well as particular districts of the city of which the Knightswood area comes to mind or passing the Free Kirk on Woodlands Road as the Sunday evening service ends.

I know that in the case of my own family, they include sept names from Ross (Crowe), Gunn (Wilson), and Sinclair (Lyall), as well as the name Mackay. Many of these family antecedents (of my grand and great-grand parents generations) came to Glasgow from Banffshire (now Aberdeenshire), Angus, and Selkirkshire (Scottish Borders), so I do not claim to be a Highlander as such, nevertheless I consider THCD part of my own cultural inheritence.

[OC Richard]

Richard, interesting post but of course there's no evidence that the "Irish warpipe" ever existed.
I imagine that, just like anywhere else, Ireland had several different types of bagpipe, including the ones that were actually used in war, the simple "no-drones" bagpipes seen in the eyewitness illustration of Irish troops at the Siege of Orlean.

They were playing something... the question is, what was it?

Unfortunately the analogies with other types of things go both ways.

Given how, in mainland Europe, bagpipe species are so diverse, with villages a few miles apart having species with completely different fingering systems, tuning systems, number and type of drones, musical repertoire etc etc (due to people in the old days not travelling around all that much... language varied like that also) I would be surprised if Ireland and Scotland, seperated by water, would have exactly the same species of bagpipe in the 1300-1600 period. Look at the divergence between Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

On the other hand, harps survive from Ireland and Scotland having very similar form and it's known that harpers themselves travelled back and forth. Direct to the pipes, didn't some Highland pipers travel to Ireland for tuition? Which suggests a more or less similar instrument. Fact is, there's very little evidence to go on.

Of course Highland pipes didn't look like they do today anyhow, in the old days. Here's our earliest clear depiction of the Highland pipes. What they looked like before 1714 we can only speculate



Here's a couple old sets





note the similarity to the Spanish pipes, especially this gaita with a y-stock



The interesting thing about highland pipes is how in two important ways they're different from all other known British pipe species
1) having a redunant drone
2) having drones in seperate stocks

Could there be a Nordic influence?? The extinct Scandinavian pipes with two tenors in seperate stocks??

[ScotFree]

On the other hand, harps survive from Ireland and Scotland having very similar form and it's known that harpers themselves travelled back and forth.

Being a Celtic harper, of no note (pun intended), I can speak to this. The harping traditions of Ireland and Scotland are very different, as are the instruments ... although they probably were quite similar in the dimmer past. The Irish adopted gut strings for their instruments. Scottish harps are generally metal strung. While the music from the respective cultures are both pentatonic, they have a very different sound and cadence, at least to my ear. While its certainly possible that Scottish harpers traveled to Ireland for training at some point, most evidence points to Welsh training since the reestablishment of harping traditions. Of the three countries, only Wales has enjoyed an unbroken harping tradition, that Ireland and Scotland don't due to proscriptions on the instrument, and their very destruction by the English crown of as many instruments as it could get its hands on, due to its cultural significance. Harps and harping was/is a bardic tradition in Celtic culture, and thereby a transmission of cultural values, feelings and beliefs. Hence the stamping out by English authority. The more current versions of harps of Irish and Scottish styles, while have many similarities, are in fact different in many details of construction and proportion.

It is not difficult to imagine that the pipes of their respective cultures would follow a similar differentiation.

[Meggers]

These are my sentiments entirely. I couldn't agree more but the impression that I have gleaned, however, is not to do with the validity or otherwise of those who choose to wear the kilt but rather that those who assume anyone wearing a kilt must be Irish. This is obviously something deeply-rooted in the mind of many such people. I wonder, perhaps, if it relates to the general misconception found by the British abroad that their country (Great Britain) is regarded by others as consisting of just two countries - England and Ireland. When asked the question on numerous occasions while in America "Are you from England?",no doubt after overhearing my speech, my response "No. Scotland actually" invariably elicits a puzzled look of incomprehension. I am assuming that such individuals do realise that kilts are not an English form of dress so must belong to that other place over there. What's it called? Oh yes - Ireland!

Part of me is very glad that I dont run into this issue because it would drive me up the wall. A tartan skirt doesnt invoke the same reaction out of people as a tartan kilt and no one has ever approached my skirt and asked "Are you Irish?" (to which I would say "yes" since I am Irish but then would have to explain "but today I am honoring my Scottish heritage") the tartan skirt, on a woman, usually gets the reaction "cute skirt! Where did you get it!?" (to me, almost equally annoying!!!)

I can't help but actually feel a bit sorry for the Irish diaspora because fantasy Ireland has taken prescendence over real Ireland and, in some ways I understand that, but fantasy Ireland seems to honestly make Ireland out to be a little worse than it really is. The celebration of St. Patricks Day, a day of a Catholic saint, has turned into one of the biggest drinking days of the year, and green beer has now become what it means to be Irish. Many Irish-Americans have no idea what being Irish is or what being Irish means. Most of us have no idea about the dark Irish history in America and, to be honest, most of us wouldnt care. Being Irish means wearing a "kilt" (or a thigh-length womens pleated skirt like I saw on one man), a bright orange wig, and getting totally and completely s*itefaced on St. Pattys Day.

[macwilkin]

I can't help but actually feel a bit sorry for the Irish diaspora because fantasy Ireland has taken prescendence over real Ireland and, in some ways I understand that, but fantasy Ireland seems to honestly make Ireland out to be a little worse than it really is. The celebration of St. Patricks Day, a day of a Catholic saint, has turned into one of the biggest drinking days of the year, and green beer has now become what it means to be Irish. Many Irish-Americans have no idea what being Irish is or what being Irish means. Most of us have no idea about the dark Irish history in America and, to be honest, most of us wouldnt care. Being Irish means wearing a "kilt" (or a thigh-length womens pleated skirt like I saw on one man), a bright orange wig, and getting totally and completely s*itefaced on St. Pattys Day.

One other thing to consider: the St. Patrick's Day parade has its roots in America. Tradition says that either Boston or New York claims the first, and that Irish-American fraternal organizations, Irish soldiers in the British Army and later, Washington's troops, celebrated St. Patrick's Day with a parade. Over the years, as the Irish-American community slowly became accepted in the larger community (after years of discrimination and hostility), the St. Patrick's Day parade became less and less (if ever) about the feast day of Ireland's patron saint, and more about a celebration of having "made it". Hence why American celebrations tend to mirror Mardi Gras -- and even that is is not "true" Mardi Gras -- being married to a Cajun, I know what that is. <grin>

St. Patrick's Day in Ireland, according to Irish friends, was always more solemn, a day when the pubs were closed and everyone went to Mass. Parades were largely ceremonial military parades, and it's only been recently that American parade customs have been brought to Ireland.
T.

[Phil]

I totally agree Phil, about the Highland/Gaelic population of Glasgow and it's environs. I have had mixed reactions to wearing the kilt in the Dear Green Place but I always put that down to factors such as family or neighbourhood practice and culture.

As you say, Peter, for whatever reason kilt-wearing has never been very popular in Glasgow. Many scouts wore it when I was younger but few others did. I wonder if it is a reaction to the influx of people from the north and islands in the 19th & 20th centuries and succeeding generations trying to distance themselves from what they may have seen as a stigma, denoting the dress of a poor and backward community rather than the bustling, prosperous one they aspired to join. Only a theory but, to this day, friends from the Glasgow area have a total antipathy towards kilt-wearing themselves although they like to see it worn by others.
On a not unrelated subject, am I alone in this or is there a growing sentiment here that sees Highland GOOD and Lowland BAD. It used to be that contributors fell over themselves to list their Scottish credentials. I'm sure you know the kind of thing - "My next door neighbour once had a cat that he got from someone whose aunt's great great grandmother's brother came from Scotland" as if such tenuous connections were necessary to lend a validity to their kilt-wearing. Now it seems that such connections must be firmly placed in "The Highlands" wherever that should be. And woe betide any ill-begotten Lowlander who should have the temerity to dabble with "the Highland" kilt or express any opinion which, of course, can immediately be challenged and disregarded as "non-Highland". Progress indeed.

[Mike_Oettle]

Kiltbook’s response to my remarks about the sporran come across as angry, and at the same time they are entirely misdirected, since the practicality I referred to has nothing whatever to do with the use (or non-use) of pockets.
I do use the sporran as a pocket, and while I have pockets on the inner aprons of both my kilts (and will have one on the new one I hope to order soon), the proper function of the kilt pocket (at least on the inner apron) is to hold a handkerchief or two.
The sporran holds more bulky objects.
But my concern about a man’s wearing a kilt without a sporran has to do with his physique, not the things he chooses to carry about with him.
Since I now no longer have a prostate, I do not run the risk of an embarrassing bulge at my crotch, but as a young man I was on more than one occasion grateful that I had a sporran with which to conceal the phenomenon.
I wonder what the Irish do in such instances?
I still have no idea why it is said that wearing a sporran is an offence to Irish cloth, and even less idea why this attitude is not applied to Irish tartan garments.
Regards,
Mike