Irish Kilt?

[Zardoz]

Close, but no cigar. The "Scots-Irish" assimilated to American society long before the arrival of the "famine" or "Green" Irish in the mid-1840s, when the potato blight and political tensions as a result of the 1848 Revolutions drove many Southern Irish from Ireland across the sea. In fact, many of those "native" Americans who stereotyped, mocked and culturally oppressed the Irish were most likely of Ulster-Scots blood themsselves. Before the arrival of the "Green" Irish, those Scots-Irish that did maintain some semblance of ethnic identity did refer to themselves as "Irish", although as you mentioned, the Ulster Scots were only Irish in geographic residence, not necessarily in culture.

As I tell my classes, the Scots-Irish dropped their ethnicity very quickly, intermarrying with Germans and French Protestants (David Crockett is the most famous example of that mixture) to become a distinctly American culture. Ironically, it was the Scots-Irish who persecuted the Loyalist Highlanders & members of the British Army's Highland regiments during the Revolution.

Still sitting this one out, but wanted to say good stuff there Todd.

[jfraser]

I know it may seem strange to many Scots, but many Irish communities around the world regard the wearing of a sporran as a Scottish custom.

I have lived in four different countries, Ireland included, and I would say that many Irish communities regard the kilt as a Scottish custom.

[Joe I]

Anceint egyptians had kilts before the Scots

[Chas]

Anceint egyptians had kilts before the Scots

Just because the 'shendyt' wraps around the body does NOT make it a kilt.

Regards

Chas

[pugcasso]

All I know is that there are quite a number of nice Irish county tartans ... they are no doubt of rather recent invention but many of them look fabulous

Also I think I read that saffron colour cloth would be more yellow than the modern kilt colour but I like the modern saffron kilt (would be nice to get a kilt like that someday to represent my father's side more).

[pugcasso]

It doesn't look pleated in the back ... I would think this should be a key defining variable in what makes a kilt...

It's *wrap* which is the family the kilt is also of.

Tons of peoples around the world had (and still have) knee-length (or a bit less or even more ... but knee-length and less implies ability to be unencumbered in mobility) wraps for men as the norm for most of human history (probably starting with some animal skin tied at the waist). I feel it is really neat walking around today wearing a clothing based on this ancient primary simple form of clothing idea .

[Joe I]

It doesn't look pleated in the back ... I would think this should be a key defining variable in what makes a kilt...

It's *wrap* which is the family the kilt is also of.

Tons of peoples around the world had (and still have) knee-length (or a bit less or even more ... but knee-length and less implies ability to be unencumbered in mobility) wraps for men as the norm for most of human history (probably starting with some animal skin tied at the waist). I feel it is really neat walking around today wearing a clothing based on this ancient primary simple form of clothing idea .

My point is Kilt like clothing being old than pants, let us all claim them!

[Friday]

It doesn't look pleated in the back ... I would think this should be a key defining variable in what makes a kilt...

It's *wrap* which is the family the kilt is also of.

I wish I could find the on-line article that said that a wrap like garment was on of the most used garments until horses became the frequent mode of transportation. I seemed that when on hose back these wrap like garments allowed to ride to be rubbed the wrong way.

[Phil]

I wish I could find the on-line article that said that a wrap like garment was on of the most used garments until horses became the frequent mode of transportation.

That sounds a very plausible argument. What more simple way could there be to keep warm than wrap some cloth or an animal skin around you. Especially if you weren't too good with a needle and thread! Following on from that, if the Irish were wearing a slightly tailored garment, sewn together and with sleeves while their Scottish cousins were still running around in a bit of (tartan?) cloth crudely wrapped around them it does give the impression of a more civilised society in Ireland at the time. "Clothes maketh the man" as the saying goes. Perhaps the reason why the Irish did not feel the need to emulate what they may have regarded as a more primitive form of dress?

[O'Callaghan]

All I know is that there are quite a number of nice Irish county tartans ... they are no doubt of rather recent invention but many of them look fabulous

Also I think I read that saffron colour cloth would be more yellow than the modern kilt colour but I like the modern saffron kilt (would be nice to get a kilt like that someday to represent my father's side more).

There's a very simple explanation for the difference in saffron colour. As a plant dye, it does not produce the same colour on different fabrics, and the Irish leine was made of linen, which has notoriously poor dye takeup. So saffron + linen = yellow, and saffron + wool = brownish orangey colour (which actually has a name, it's called 'ruggy' [spelling?]). Of course, modern kilts are dyed with synthetic dyes, not saffron, and cheap ones are not even made of wool, but they approximate the colour of wool dyed with saffron, and if you see someone dressed in a leine to represent the ancient Irish it will be yellow, although it's not dyed with real saffron either, although hopefully it will be linen.

As for Irish tartans, they are all fairly recent, virtually all being 1960s or later, with just a few exceptions for certain family names (not Callaghan, which only dates to 2007!). County tartans only date back to the 1990s, although there are two for every county, as two separate mills invented their own ones. Marton Mills claim that theirs are based upon the colours taken from county crests, while House of Edgar don't try to explain where theirs come from.

My ancestors being from Cork, I have researched this and can say that (officially at least) only Cork City has a crest, not County Cork, and it has NO set colour scheme atall! However, the GAA, which regulates Gaelic Football and Hurling, has a pennant and a crest for each county, and for County Cork the GAA pennant is red and white, whilst the GAA crest is the Cork CITY crest portrayed in red, blue, green and yellow, which just happen to be the colours of the House of Edgar tartan for County Cork, which doesn't claim to be based upon a county crest. So where do Marton Mills get their colour scheme from? AFAIK it is taken from the version of the Cork City crest on the shirts of the Cork City Football Club (soccer)!

I don't know what you will find if you research the other counties, but you may expect to find similarly quixotic origins, if any, for the colours of the other county tartans.