Irish Kilt?

[figheadair]

There's a very simple explanation for the difference in saffron colour. As a plant dye, it does not produce the same colour on different fabrics, and the Irish leine was made of linen, which has notoriously poor dye takeup. So saffron + linen = yellow, and saffron + wool = brownish orangey colour (which actually has a name, it's called 'ruggy' [spelling?]). Of course, modern kilts are dyed with synthetic dyes, not saffron, and cheap ones are not even made of wool, but they approximate the colour of wool dyed with saffron, and if you see someone dressed in a leine to represent the ancient Irish it will be yellow, although it's not dyed with real saffron either, although hopefully it will be linen.

I don't know the answer but I suspect that the tem 'saffron' in connection with the leine possibly dates to the period of the rise of Irish Nationalism and sources such as McClintock’s book. Apart from being very expensive Saffron is a foreign dyestuff and very unstable which is why any group of Buddhist monks will display a variety of shades in their robes which are re-dyed as they fade out. I agree that one or more shades of yellow, probably more brownish-orange than lemon would have been the norm for the leine and there are a host of native dye plants that could have been the source.

[Steve Ashton]

No one has yet mentioned that Saffron was (and still is in much of the world) the most expensive spice in the world. It has historically been traded for its weight in Gold.

Each Crocus flower produces only three stamens of Saffron. There are up to four flowers per plant. The plant cannot reproduce on its own so all Saffron plants are clones. Each stamen must be picked by hand.

During the time most of you are talking about it was grown in many parts of the world but was still very rare and very expensive.

[Friday]

There's a very simple explanation for the difference in saffron colour. As a plant dye, it does not produce the same colour on different fabrics, and the Irish leine was made of linen, which has notoriously poor dye takeup. So saffron + linen = yellow, and saffron + wool = brownish orangey colour (which actually has a name, it's called 'ruggy' [spelling?]). Of course, modern kilts are dyed with synthetic dyes, not saffron, and cheap ones are not even made of wool, but they approximate the colour of wool dyed with saffron, and if you see someone dressed in a leine to represent the ancient Irish it will be yellow, although it's not dyed with real saffron either, although hopefully it will be linen.

I wonder if there may be some confusion between Irish using saffron (from the Crocus) to dye and using local plants dyes to produce a yellow (saffron) color?

Here is an interesting article giving both sides of the question

Also see article A Few Arguments on the Subject of Saffron


An article in Wikipedia on natural plant dyes lists a number of natural materials and plants that will produce a yellow color.Could the linen been dyed yellow using local material and the color name "saffron" applied to that color yellow?

Also see:
Saffron-dyed Leine

[MacSpadger]

Could the linen been dyed yellow using local material and the color name "saffron" applied to that color yellow?

That's been the view for many years. As Steve has said, saffron is very expensive, it has a long history of being exclusively used by nobility. At times it has been the most expensive commodity in the world, more valuable then gold. A war has been fought over it, (helpfully called The Saffron War to remind us). You could be executed for possessing it, in Germany burnt alive. It was very, very rare in Europe, and very, very expensive. Ordinary people simply didn't ever use it.
The first references to saffron in Ireland came from French and Italian ambassadors who would have been no strangers to saffron. It's assumed that they saw saffron coloured clothing, so just decided it was saffron, as that's what they would have been familiar with. English visitors also used the term saffron, but, like the use of the term "warpipe", there are no pre "Celtic revival" references to saffron in any actual Irish writings. In Scotland it appears in written Gaelic text in 1703.

A clearer process is given by the English Jesuit priest known as Father Good, who was sent to Limerick circa 1556. In his eyewitness writings on Ireland he states "with the boughs, bark and leaves of poplar trees beaten together they dye their loose shirts of a saffron colour ". So; no saffron, according to Father Good, but poplar trees. However, he does use saffron as a name of a colour.

Dundee United play in orange shirts, but no-one seriously expects that they used real oranges to dye them. I think that over time saffron just became a descriptive name of a colour, until it was misunderstood during the revival period of the late 1800's, by which time saffron was not so rare.

It must also be mentioned that natural bog water, of which there is plenty in Ireland, can produce a saffron hued dye simply by steeping cloth in it.

[Jock Scot]

I was aware of saffron being scarce and exceedingly expensive in times past, but the rest of the above is new to me and very interesting. Thank you so much.

[Phil]

It must also be mentioned that natural bog water, of which there is plenty in Ireland, can produce a saffron hued dye simply by steeping cloth in it.

Indeed. After a week's fishing on Lewis my pristine white fly-line turned a permanent brownish-yellow. The bath water looked like builder's tea as well - seemed to leave the skin very soft though, just a pity about the stain on the bath. Maybe someone could market it.

[Jock Scot]

Indeed. After a week's fishing on Lewis my pristine white fly-line turned a permanent brownish-yellow. The bath water looked like builder's tea as well - seemed to leave the skin very soft though, just a pity about the stain on the bath. Maybe someone could market it.

Oh thank goodness this is a kilt website! Otherwise we could sink into the endless morass of a "White Line debate"!

[Phil]

Oh thank goodness this is a kilt website! Otherwise we could sink into the endless morass of a "White Line debate"!

It would make a welcome change from the age-old "Irish kilt" debate though, wouldn't it?:sux:

[Downunder Kilt]

The bath water looked like builder's tea as well

Was that before you got in, or after you got out of the tub Phil?

[Phil]

Was that before you got in, or after you got out of the tub Phil?

That was before - it was 2 shades darker afterwards. It didn't half taste good in the whisky though (the before I mean of course)