More on Septs

[creagdhubh]

I can't find the reference, but I thought that the original Gilbert came over with William the Conqueror.

Gilbert is pronounced softer like the cheese Camembert, rather than the harder Saxon AlBert, or EgBert, or EngelBert.

That is my understanding.

Reagrds

Chas

Actually Chas, this was my understanding as well. Along with with "Gilbert" being of French origin, I have always believed it to be a surname particularly associated with the Norman conquest. Hence, "Gilbert" being a surname possibly derived from the Normandy region of France. Perhaps a bit like how the Clan Fraser began, with "de Friselle."

Cheers,

[James the Gilbert]

Well..This is truely...an eye opener.
I will contact the Clan Buchanan to see why they say that Gilbert is a sept of their clan.
They MUST have research and data to back this claim.

Thank you gentleman.

[SonofAlba]

My understanding has always been that septs are rather like tartans... the actual historical association with a particular clan is largely a fabrication. After all, as has already been pointed out, just as members of a single clan would have worn a huge variety of different tartan colors/patterns, it is not as if particular surnames were necessarily part of a particular clan, while others were necessarily excluded. Seemingly, the primary basis for membership was loyalty to the chief (although this was obviously not unrelated to familial descent).

Nevertheless, this does not make the sept relations or associated tartans to clans unimportant. After all, what most contemporary clansmen/kilt wearers are interested in is not historical reenactment, but rather representing their heritage and culture. In truth, the actual historical clan system (as a social structure and governing system) has evolved into something altogether different: the celebration of one's cultural identity. So, while the idealized clan system and uniform tartan does not perfectly match the organic system of history(which obviously changed and developed over hundreds of years anyway) to ask it to do so is unrealistic... even naive. I think we can proudly represent our heritage without replicating or reenacting...after all we are not playing dress up.

[California Highlander]

All depends on where they came from. My ancestors are Gilberts who came to the USA from Scotland via Northern Ireland (secondary sources). Pronounced in the Anglo-saxon manner "Gill-bert", not the French "Jill-bear". In my genealogy research "Gilbert" can be French, Irish, English, German, Scottish, or "something else".

Wikipedia does say the name is Norman-French & Germanic, but with no real sources listed. Generally the English/Irish/Scottish Gilberts probably got the name from the Normans. Gilberts and Gilbertsons are associated with Buchanan and Cameron in some sources, also occasionally Kennedy and Gibson as relating to Scots in Ulster. Gibson is "Gilbert's son". Another Scottish Gilbert connection: Walter Fitz Gilbert - 13c Scottish noble. Supported England against Wallace and Bruce, but eventually saw the light :-)

As with all names, they spread, get reformed, and get reused (maybe because the Norman-Scottish Gilbert sounded like the German-Jewish name Goldberg and it got changed along the way, for example).

[MacSpadger]

My understanding has always been that septs are rather like tartans... the actual historical association with a particular clan is largely a fabrication. After all, as has already been pointed out, just as members of a single clan would have worn a huge variety of different tartan colors/patterns, it is not as if particular surnames were necessarily part of a particular clan, while others were necessarily excluded. Seemingly, the primary basis for membership was loyalty to the chief (although this was obviously not unrelated to familial descent).

Nevertheless, this does not make the sept relations or associated tartans to clans unimportant. After all, what most contemporary clansmen/kilt wearers are interested in is not historical reenactment, but rather representing their heritage and culture. In truth, the actual historical clan system (as a social structure and governing system) has evolved into something altogether different: the celebration of one's cultural identity. So, while the idealized clan system and uniform tartan does not perfectly match the organic system of history(which obviously changed and developed over hundreds of years anyway) to ask it to do so is unrealistic... even naive. I think we can proudly represent our heritage without replicating or reenacting...after all we are not playing dress up.

As our own creagdubh would say, ***. I have come to exactly the same conclusion after much reading and even contact with clan chiefs, who were very helpful but, by and large, thought the whole sept business a bit of a mystery too. Surnames don't count for much, really again I'll just refer to to the MacDonalds of Glencoe, whose clan members had the surnames MacAlasdair, MacEanruig, (MacHenry/ Henderson), MacStarken, Robertson, Rankin, Don, Matheson, Kennedy, MacIntyre and MacIan, yet all were Macdonalds of Glencoe. Among the Campbell men who perpetrated the infamous massacre were men also with the surnames MacEnruig, MacHenry, Henderson, and Rankin. Nothing is obviously connected to the commonly held idea of a "sept". No name is fixed, MacDonald, for example, is a surname applicable to any one who had a father named Donald, such as Donald Campbell. I also don't know how people can attribute names being "Anglicised" in such odd ways. A prime example is the name Gilmore, which in some sources is given as taken from a Gaelic version of "Servant of the Virgin Mary", but, to actual Gaelic speakers it seems obvious that it comes from Ghillie Mòr, meaning Big Servant or even great or grand servant. The Ghillie Mòr is praised in song and poetry from several areas of the Highlands, and from several clans, after all, most chiefs would have a head servant, wouldn't they?
So, I can't see how with any certainty the name Gilmore could be a sept of Morrison and no other Clan, although some Gilmores would be Morrisons. What I can't get is how Ghillie Mor, big servant, gets Anglicised into Morrison, meaning Son of Maurice. Some translations are obvious, Donaldson to MacDonald, Robertson to MacRobert, for example, but some are just bamboozling.

James, when I contacted the chief of the MacDonnels of Glengarry, he told me that my family name was considered a principle sept of the clan by previous clan historians. He could name the historians and tell me when they made their assertions, but he could not tell me why. If I was in your position I'd see no harm in asking why Gilbert is considered a sept of Buchanan. I'd also see no harm in asking for clan membership, if that is important to you. The most obvious thing to do, in my eyes anyway, would be to first find out where your family came from. If they are English, French or German Gilberts then even that does not preclude you from wearing the Buchanan tartan, but if they are Scottish Gilberts it will perhaps make your attachment more meaningful.

[James the Gilbert]

Of course it is important.
My attachment to the Kilt is one of an attachment to the history of the people of Scotland, whos history is similar to the Nation God had blessed me to be born in. Fighting for Independence and Freedom and existence. For me, If my name does not trace to Scotland, then it makes me a mir allie of Scotland and the Kilt just another article of clothing. Whatever the tartans, Clans, and "septs" have morphed in the last thousand years is redundant to me. What is not, is knowing weather I share a blood link with a kindred people who have not only survived for a thousand years, but flourished, and because of ties to the Country and treasures like the tartans, Clans and "septs".
I have relatives who today reside in Manchester, England, I am sure that from 1066 to before the beginning of the 16th century, at one point, my bloodline would have migrated or sought adventure in the Highlands or lowlands of Scotland.
And we Gilberts are ALL English, French, and German......as well as American, Dutch, Belgian, and every other nation we walked, rode, floated, or flew to. Including Scotland. For as long as the name has been around, it has changed little or not at all.
I will continue to follow the family tree, and hope to be here again and rightfully claim, without a doubt to me, My connection to My Clan and stand beside them, rather than behind them.
I Thank you all for your insight and the renewed fire you have kindled in me with this thread.

[creagdhubh]

As our own creagdubh would say, ***.

Indeed, hahaha!!!

Cheers,

[MacSpadger]

I will continue to follow the family tree, and hope to be here again and rightfully claim, without a doubt to me, My connection to My Clan and stand beside them, rather than behind them.

Yes, do let us know how you get on. I would be interested in why Gilbert might be considered a sept of Buchanan or Cameron, but yet Hamilton is not mentioned, despite all of Clan Hamilton being descended from Walter fitz Gilbert, an ally of Robert the Bruce who died in 1346.

[James the Gilbert]

"Clan Buchanan has occupied the lands surrounding the shores of Loch Lomond since 1225 as a result of a grant by the Earl of Lennox to Sir Absalon of Buchanan in which he is referred to as 'clericus meus', meaning 'my clergyman'. Towards the middle of the 13th century Gilbert seneschal to the Earl of Lennox obtained part of the lands of Buchanan in Stirlingshire and took his surname from the lands called Buchanan.^{[10]"
Maybe this is why.And for good reason....Still searching.}

[Mike_Oettle]

Hi, James –
while the name Gilbert is quite definitely of Germanic origin, that is not to say that it cannot be French, English or Scottish. Many French families have surnames that were originally Germanic, which is understandable because the French nation even takes its name from a Germanic tribe, the Franks.
(The nation now called French were Celtic-speaking Gauls who, as a consequence of Roman conquest, took to speaking the Romance tongue.)
The name arrived in the British Isles by way of the army that accompanied William of Normandy in 1066, but that army had various origins – some were actually Norman, others were Flemish (usually from families that had settled in Normandy), and yet others were from other parts.
What is important is that the name became English (in the sense of the English language, whether in England or in Scotland), and that many families that are now thoroughly Scottish settled north of the border during the Middle Ages, having come from England or further afield.
Which clan you belong to is a matter of your family’s history in Scotland, but don’t become over-anxious about links to England, France or Germany.
Regards,
Mike

PS: The modern French pronunciation of the name is Zhil-bear, but it could well have sounded much more like its English form in earlier times.