Irish kilt books

[kilted scholar]

For what it's worth I agree with Matt and the others on the obvious point about Ireland.

However, much to my astonishment, I was wearing the kilt in London the other week and a middle aged man with an Irish accent, who grew up in Ireland, came up and asked me if I was Irish!! The reason, it transpired, was that the predominant colour in the kilt was green. I am not Irish, and it was not an Irish tartan.

Figure that out!

[O'Callaghan]

Coming from a predominantly Irish-American neighborhood in Chicago and being wowed as a young child by the Stock Yard Kiltie Band, I'd like to point out that the only time I've ever seen anybody who lays claim to Irish heritage wear a kilt is when they've either been in a pipe band or the odd few college age types that show up for the St. Patrick's Day Parade here. That's it. Not like I ever see anybody in a kilt ever turn up in one or another of the many Irish bars hereabouts...I guarantee that if you did, the first question would be, "Where's your bagpipes?" or "Who died?", the latter on the assumption that you were playing the pipes at somebody's funeral. If you said that you didn't play the pipes, you'd get a whole big load of sh*t from the locals, most of whom will be wearing jeans and t-shirts with the occasional tweed flat cap or maybe Irish fisherman's sweater thrown in.

Mention the Trinity Irish Dancers and I think of the Irish Dance groups that we had in my old neighborhood (circa 1960's) and how much abuse the boys, who did wear simple navy blue kilts, jackets and ties back then, got from everybody in the school. (Okay...kids will be like that...but these were the kids from the Good Old Irish Families of the neighborhood so you'd think that there'd be a little slack cut.)

Now...I only lay that all out because I'd love to know why the Irish emigres and their descendants who started these pipe bands chose to go with the kilt as a uniform...or, in fact, why they even decided to go with bagpipes...since both the pipes and the kilt are associated with the Scots. There were brass bands in the Ireland that the emigres left...why not brass bands instead of pipe bands? Friend of mine ran a music store hereabouts a few years ago and I suggested that we might form a tin whistle and bodhran marching band for the South Side Irish Parade...seemed like it might be more authentic.

So I'm curious about why the Irish Americans adopted Scottish dress and instruments. I think that a lot of the association of the Irish with the kilt is tied to the pipe band thing. Any opinions?

Best

AA

You're mostly right in what you say about the kilt. However, many Irish nationalists in Ireland did wear plain green and plain saffron kilts in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Not so much today, but there is a historical basis for it, whatever anyone (even anyone Irish, much less Scottish Americans) tells you.

OTOH, the bagpipes, although heavily associated with Scotland, originated in the Middle East and spread all over Europe. You might think of them as a Scottish instrument, but they don't even use the same scales as any instrument of European origin, but Eastern scales that cause pipers to approximate the right notes for anything not actually written for pipes. They have at least as much connection with Ireland as with Scotland historically. Those same nationalists set up pipebands in Ireland during the same period I refer to above, and there is ample evidence of that.

The fact that most Americans associate kilts and bagpipes with the Irish even before they think of Scotland has to do with police and fire department pipebands. These same departments tended in the past to be populated with Irish Americans, and they set up pipebands. This annoys the bejesus (a word no Irishman uses) out of Scottish Americans, just as it annoys the bejesus out of them that ethnic Irish have been wearing 'their' kilts for more than a century, as anyone can tell who reads these sort of threads!

[auld argonian]

You're mostly right in what you say about the kilt. However, many Irish nationalists in Ireland did wear plain green and plain saffron kilts in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Not so much today, but there is a historical basis for it, whatever anyone (even anyone Irish, much less Scottish Americans) tells you.

Okay, but why didn't (and why don't) the Irish Americans wear the green or saffron kilts? Looks like they went with Scottish tartans...availability wouldn't be much of a reason since it'd be easier and cheaper to weave a solid color than a tartan. It's been pointed out here that the Irish County tartans and family tartans were designed very recently so those weren't available though it would have been just as feasible for the 19th and early 20th Century folks to design a distinct tartan and have it woven back then.

It certainly doesn't annoy me (my bejesuses are nicely intact) but I am curious as to why a group that has always put a lot of emphasis on their traditions would just sort of get liberal about things like this while they're pretty specific about so many other things. If there were pipes in some historic period in Ireland, why would they not use pipes based on those rather than just accept pipes based on the Scottish model...I would think that there'd be some differences between the two...and why adopt a repertoire of Scottish tunes rather than Irish ones?

I have to speculate that the Irish Nationalists went with the kilt and the pipes as a shock tactic...to make a statement. I got no problem with that...when you're trying to kick start a political movement, ya' do what ya' gotta do.

I'm not making a case that "the Irish had to copy from the Scots" here...it's just pure academic curiosity. No ax to grind, folks. Just wondering if somebody said, "Hey, ya' know what we should do? We should get some of them kilts and wear those!" "Yeah...great idea....but most people think that kilts are Scottish not Irish..." "Ah....what do they know?"

I would suggest that, as far as those early Irish American pipe bands were concerned, they might have looked at the prospect of wearing a solid color kilt and figgered that observers would think that they were skirts...."if it's solid color, it's a skirt BUT if it's TARTAN, it's a kilt".

Best

AA

[flairball]

As I recall from a thread here some years ago the use of kilts in Ireland was always connected to politics, or the military. In a nutshell, as I remember it, the politicians from northern Ireland adopted kilt wearing as a way to stand out in parliament. Likewise, Irish regiments of the British military also followed the Scottish design and wore kilts to differentiate themselves from the English regiments. And as has been discussed in this thread, an Irish nationalist movement adopted the klt, and tried to encourage its wearing.

These things do not however make up a cultural tradition of kilt wearing in Ireland, but a history of kilt use in Ireland. In every case the kilt was used to make a statement, as a uniform. That statement would be understood by the Irish, and anyone seen wearing a kilt would be associated with the movement or military. The kilt was not ever accepted as cultural Irish dress, however. To be accepted as a cultural form of Irish dress it would have to be accepted by those who chose not to wear it, and not just seen as a statement.

Of course, none of this means that you can't just wear a kilt because you like it.

[macwilkin]

As I recall from a thread here some years ago the use of kilts in Ireland was always connected to politics, or the military. In a nutshell, as I remember it, the politicians from northern Ireland adopted kilt wearing as a way to stand out in parliament. Likewise, Irish regiments of the British military also followed the Scottish design and wore kilts to differentiate themselves from the English regiments. And as has been discussed in this thread, an Irish nationalist movement adopted the klt, and tried to encourage its wearing.

These things do not however make up a cultural tradition of kilt wearing in Ireland, but a history of kilt use in Ireland. In every case the kilt was used to make a statement, as a uniform. That statement would be understood by the Irish, and anyone seen wearing a kilt would be associated with the movement or military. The kilt was not ever accepted as cultural Irish dress, however. To be accepted as a cultural form of Irish dress it would have to be accepted by those who chose not to wear it, and not just seen as a statement.

Of course, none of this means that you can't just wear a kilt because you like it.

Spot on, with one slight disagreement. For the Irish regiments of the British Commonwealth, and to a lesser degree the Irish Defence Forces, the kilt did beome part of their regimental culture. Regiments do have their own particular totems and talismen, and the various Irish regiments that maintained pipe bands (only one regiment, the Canadian Irish Regiment, adopted kilts for all ranks, not just musicians) the kilt is now a part of regimental culture and tradition. It's a very minor point, though. A uniform can become part of a sub-culture, and one that is very strongly defended -- witness the recent attempt by the MoD to take away the "golden threads" of regimental cap badges & hackles in the Royal Regiment of Scotland.

As Matt has mentioned before, our article on the subject is a good starting point. It is by no means the definitive source on the subject, and is certainly a work in progress:

http://scottishtartans.org/irish_kilts.htm

Regards,

Todd

[O'Callaghan]

Okay, but why didn't (and why don't) the Irish Americans wear the green or saffron kilts? Looks like they went with Scottish tartans...availability wouldn't be much of a reason since it'd be easier and cheaper to weave a solid color than a tartan. It's been pointed out here that the Irish County tartans and family tartans were designed very recently so those weren't available though it would have been just as feasible for the 19th and early 20th Century folks to design a distinct tartan and have it woven back then.

It certainly doesn't annoy me (my bejesuses are nicely intact) but I am curious as to why a group that has always put a lot of emphasis on their traditions would just sort of get liberal about things like this while they're pretty specific about so many other things. If there were pipes in some historic period in Ireland, why would they not use pipes based on those rather than just accept pipes based on the Scottish model...I would think that there'd be some differences between the two...and why adopt a repertoire of Scottish tunes rather than Irish ones?

I have to speculate that the Irish Nationalists went with the kilt and the pipes as a shock tactic...to make a statement. I got no problem with that...when you're trying to kick start a political movement, ya' do what ya' gotta do.

I'm not making a case that "the Irish had to copy from the Scots" here...it's just pure academic curiosity. No ax to grind, folks. Just wondering if somebody said, "Hey, ya' know what we should do? We should get some of them kilts and wear those!" "Yeah...great idea....but most people think that kilts are Scottish not Irish..." "Ah....what do they know?"

I would suggest that, as far as those early Irish American pipe bands were concerned, they might have looked at the prospect of wearing a solid color kilt and figgered that observers would think that they were skirts...."if it's solid color, it's a skirt BUT if it's TARTAN, it's a kilt".

Best

AA

Concerning civilian pipebands in Ireland, specifically of the nationalist rather than loyalist kind, they did wear solid colour kilts to begin with, together with green caubeens on their heads, and a few of them still dress that way, in fact most of them apparently dressed like that as recently as the 1970s. Some of the bands seem to have had two uniforms, with either green or saffron kilts. The records that survive don't explain that particular detail, but I'd guess that whether you'd want to wear green was a function of how much you wanted to annoy the Brits, back when the whole island was under British rule. Over time, however, they seem to have mostly switched to tartan kilts and black glengarries, although they studiously avoid diced bands on the latter, considering it (rightly or wrongly) to represent the British crown.

As to Irish American police and fire department pipebands, you may have something about tartan being seen as less like a skirt. My own daughter has been known to order me to wear a tartan kilt rather than a solid colour one! I don't know whether they ever dressed more 'Irish' at some point in the past, but you have to remember that they were first and foremost Americans, and many of their members would have no Irish blood atall.

It is true that there were differences between Irish and Scottish pipes. The original bagpipes had one long bass drone pointing down, and these can still be seen in places such as Spain, Portugal, Bulgaria and some parts of what used to be Yugoslavia, to name a few countries. Pipes with two upwards pointing drones can still be found in Germany, Austria and France, and maybe other places, and the Irish pipes would have been something along those lines, but had fallen out of use by the time the Irish nationalists decided to revive them, except in the form of parlour pipes that you pump under your arm instead of by blowing into them. The Irish form of the parlour pipes are known as the uillean or sometimes union pipes, and are often thought of as particularly Irish, but exist in various forms in several countries including Scotland. Scottish pipes differ by having three drones.

Now, you couldn't use the parlour pipes in a marching band, because they aren't loud enough! So, the nationalists had to come up with something. The same goes for Irish units of the British Army faced with the same problem. French pipes such as the cornemuse might have been the closest thing to what the old Irish pipes would have resembled, but no-one seems to have adopted that particular solution, and I don't know whether there were any major makers in France at that time, which might be the reason(?). Or maybe they just didn't like the French, LOL! What seems to have been adopted instead were two drone pipes that were derived from Scottish designs, but minus a drone. Again, over time, they seem to have simply switched to the Scottish type of pipe, being no doubt cheaper and more widely available. I might venture to suggest that having the correct number of drones might never have been considered important in the US. I don't play the pipes, and I'm not sure they sound much different.