Will Catherine be Queen?

[McClef]

When Charles becomes King both the Prime Minister and Archbishop of Canterbury of the day will announce that there is no objection, and indeed no legal obstacle why Camilla may not be styled or crowned as Queen.

No objections were raised by either occupant of these posts at the time of the marriage. In the case of Edward VIII it was entirely different as both Stanley Baldwin and Cosmo Gordon Laing voiced not only their objections in advance but Baldwin threatened resignation on the issue and Laing that he would refuse to crown either Edward or Wallis.

The talk of "Princess Consort" is sheer flummery and it will suddenly be found that constitutionally such a title would both contravene the spirit of the constitution and not be practical. The lawful wife of the King (and Camilla has been officially accepted as such by the establishment) can only be a Queen Consort. The only thing that could prevent this is if Charles should die before his mother and hence not become King.

[davidg]

The constitutional position follows the traditional one. There are three essentially different titles: Queen Regnant (reigning), Queen Consort (the wife of a King) and Queen Dowager (the widow of a King). The same titles extend to Prince and Princess (except Dowager in the case of a Prince). If Philip had already been a King (of another realm) then he would have assumed the title King Consort but, legally, he was not even a prince under UK law so he had to be created a Prince of the UK first. The Queen made a decision not to give him the formal title of Consort for reasons best known to herself but probably because of the origins of his Mountbatten surname and its German roots so he is a Prince in title only, but is also consort to the Queen (as opposed to the two words being used as a title) because he is married to her

Tradition usually dictates that a woman assumes the same rank as her husband when she marries. Therefore Catherine's formal title would be Princess William of Wales Duchess of Cambridge, because she is not a Princess in her own right (yet - the Queen can confer that). It is a peculiarity of this system of assuming a husband's rank that requires the Princess Royal to courtesy to and defer to Catherine when William is present but when he is not Catherine must courtesy and defer to the Princess Royal. The same protocol applies to Camilla. However, a man does not assume his wife's rank in any circumstance. That is why a King's wife is usually a Queen, whereas a Queen's husband is usually just a Prince. But there are exceptions. The difference when William ascends the throne is that his wife will be crowned and thus assumes the rank of Queen in her own right (but not Regnant, only Consort). Whether Camilla becomes Queen would largely depend on the coronation arrangements as she cannot assume the title Queen without a coronation

Whilst there are many forms of styling the title of the reigning Queen one possible style would be to call her Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh, Queen of the United Kingdom etc. Usually just Queen is the easiest

[McClef]

Yes it is always more difficult for a man marrying into royalty.

It does not make them royal if they were not royal before and unless they already have a title, they must either be given one by the Monarch or not be given one.

The female royal keeps their status as a Princess but any other title is taken from her husband. For example the Queen's aunt, Princess Mary, married the Earl of Harewood and became HRH Princess Mary (she was also the Princess Royal of the time), Countess of Harewood. When Princess Margaret married Mr Anthony Armstrong-Jones she remained HRH the Princess Margaret but would also have been known as Mrs Anthony Armstrong-Jones had he not been created Earl of Snowdon which then made her Countess of Snowdon. When Princess Anne, the current Princess Royal, married Mr Mark Phillips she became Mrs Mark Phillips as he took no title himself (although it is likely he was offered one) and again she retained her own royal titles. It is the same with her second marriage to Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Laurence (although with his knighthood she could use the Lady title).

I would disagree with davidg when he states "Whether Camilla becomes Queen would largely depend on the coronation arrangements as she cannot assume the title Queen without a coronation."

The crown and title is inherited upon the death of a sovereign, not upon the coronation of a successor and that equally applies to the wife of the new king. Queen Alexandra became Queen on the day that Queen Victoria died, not on the day that Edward VII was crowned as did Queen Mary on the day that Edward VII died.

There was a Queen who was actually denied a coronation and who is yet counted as a Queen consort - Caroline of Brunswick, the estranged wife of George IV who tried to get into the Abbey at his Coronation so that she could be crowned but was denied access. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_of_Brunswick

[creagdhubh]

Very interesting discussion everyone, thanks for contributing. A most enjoyable read!

Cheers,

[Richrail]

Very interesting discussion everyone, thanks for contributing. A most enjoyable read!

Cheers,

+***

[BCAC]

Jeez, I MUST be getting old! What on earth does +*** mean?

[creagdhubh]

Jeez, I MUST be getting old! What on earth does +*** mean?

It basically means a member of the rabble really (hence the double +) agrees, or likes another member's comment/contribution/response to a particular thread/topic. Apparently, I am notorious for giving "***'s."

Cheers,

[davidg]

I would disagree with davidg when he states "Whether Camilla becomes Queen would largely depend on the coronation arrangements as she cannot assume the title Queen without a coronation."

I think the distinction here is that she becomes queen with a small q because she automatically assumes the rank of her husband. To be acknowledged by the country as a Queen in her own right requires the coronation

McFarkus makes an interesting point about Philip being a prince of Greece and entitled to the title HRH. That's not entirely accurate as the Greek royal family had been deposed. Therefore Philip "assumed" the title of prince but was no longer legally one in his own country. Courtesy would demand he be referred to that way by us but making him legally a UK prince solved all problems I think

[McClef]

A Queen Consort is not Queen in her own right in the way that a Queen Regnant is. She is Queen Consort by virtue of her marriage to the King not because of inheriting the throne.

[JohntheBiker]

McFarkus makes an interesting point about Philip being a prince of Greece and entitled to the title HRH. That's not entirely accurate as the Greek royal family had been deposed. Therefore Philip "assumed" the title of prince but was no longer legally one in his own country. Courtesy would demand he be referred to that way by us but making him legally a UK prince solved all problems I think

It can get quite complicated. Philip was a prince of Greece and Denmark. While the family was deposed in Greece, the Danish connection remained and he was still a prince of Denmark.