Will Catherine be Queen?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I've corrected Catherine in the title.

It has been usual for the wife of a king to be titled Queen, but it would be usual for the wife of a Prince to be a princess, which in the case of Charles and Camilla has not been the case.

This was a decision taken jointly by HRH Prince Charles and (as she was then) Camilla Parker-Bowles and approved by Her Majesty prior to their wedding.

The mother of our present Queen was 'Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother' - not counted as a queen...

Actually, until the death of her husband, HM King George VI, she was styled as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth. On February 6, 1952, her daughter HRH Princess Elizabeth assumed the crown as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. Because of the similarity of names, the former queen (now a dowager) took the title Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother.

...but if Charles becomes King it will have to be decided then what title Camilla will use.

She will use the title Her Majesty Queen Camilla.

Possibly Dowager Duchess but Charles' marriage is setting a new precedent, so the title will have to be sorted out as and when necessary.

A "dowager" is the widow of a deceased titled nobleman, ie: the dowager Marchioness of Brighton; this is a rather archaic distinction and not often encountered in common modern usage. As far as sorting out HRH The Duchess of Cornwall's title when her husband becomes king, these things were well and truly sorted out before they were married in the unlikely event that Her Majesty should die either before or immediately after her son's marriage.

In the course of time Catherine should take the title Queen, but she would not become monarch as she is not in the line of succession.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

Quite correct. Her step-son William would (presumably) ascend the throne as His Majesty King William V, and his wife would become Her Majesty Queen Catherine. Her Majesty Queen Camilla would retain both the style (HM) and title (queen) that she enjoyed during the lifetime of her husband, the late king.

[John_Carrick]

The lawful wife of an incoming king automatically becomes queen, and this will happen to Kate (good thing too!).
Special arrangements have been made for Camilla, using the title Duchess of Cornwall, and I think this has been wise and has helped her to become accepted and reasonably popular, whereas if she had become Princess of Wales an uncomfortable comparison would be made with the late Princess of Wales. In my view she would be well accepted by the country as Queen Camilla, but they have clearly decided this won't happen when Charles becomes king.
John

[McClef]

When Charles becomes King both the Prime Minister and Archbishop of Canterbury of the day will announce that there is no objection, and indeed no legal obstacle why Camilla may not be styled or crowned as Queen.

No objections were raised by either occupant of these posts at the time of the marriage. In the case of Edward VIII it was entirely different as both Stanley Baldwin and Cosmo Gordon Laing voiced not only their objections in advance but Baldwin threatened resignation on the issue and Laing that he would refuse to crown either Edward or Wallis.

The talk of "Princess Consort" is sheer flummery and it will suddenly be found that constitutionally such a title would both contravene the spirit of the constitution and not be practical. The lawful wife of the King (and Camilla has been officially accepted as such by the establishment) can only be a Queen Consort. The only thing that could prevent this is if Charles should die before his mother and hence not become King.

[davidg]

The constitutional position follows the traditional one. There are three essentially different titles: Queen Regnant (reigning), Queen Consort (the wife of a King) and Queen Dowager (the widow of a King). The same titles extend to Prince and Princess (except Dowager in the case of a Prince). If Philip had already been a King (of another realm) then he would have assumed the title King Consort but, legally, he was not even a prince under UK law so he had to be created a Prince of the UK first. The Queen made a decision not to give him the formal title of Consort for reasons best known to herself but probably because of the origins of his Mountbatten surname and its German roots so he is a Prince in title only, but is also consort to the Queen (as opposed to the two words being used as a title) because he is married to her

Tradition usually dictates that a woman assumes the same rank as her husband when she marries. Therefore Catherine's formal title would be Princess William of Wales Duchess of Cambridge, because she is not a Princess in her own right (yet - the Queen can confer that). It is a peculiarity of this system of assuming a husband's rank that requires the Princess Royal to courtesy to and defer to Catherine when William is present but when he is not Catherine must courtesy and defer to the Princess Royal. The same protocol applies to Camilla. However, a man does not assume his wife's rank in any circumstance. That is why a King's wife is usually a Queen, whereas a Queen's husband is usually just a Prince. But there are exceptions. The difference when William ascends the throne is that his wife will be crowned and thus assumes the rank of Queen in her own right (but not Regnant, only Consort). Whether Camilla becomes Queen would largely depend on the coronation arrangements as she cannot assume the title Queen without a coronation

Whilst there are many forms of styling the title of the reigning Queen one possible style would be to call her Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh, Queen of the United Kingdom etc. Usually just Queen is the easiest

[Pleater]

Wasn't Prince Philip originally a Prince of Greece?

I am almost certain that he had to give up his place in the Greek succession before marrying the then Princess Elizabeth, only becoming a Prince again, this time of Britain, when she was Queen and made him so some years after her accession.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[McClef]

Yes it is always more difficult for a man marrying into royalty.

It does not make them royal if they were not royal before and unless they already have a title, they must either be given one by the Monarch or not be given one.

The female royal keeps their status as a Princess but any other title is taken from her husband. For example the Queen's aunt, Princess Mary, married the Earl of Harewood and became HRH Princess Mary (she was also the Princess Royal of the time), Countess of Harewood. When Princess Margaret married Mr Anthony Armstrong-Jones she remained HRH the Princess Margaret but would also have been known as Mrs Anthony Armstrong-Jones had he not been created Earl of Snowdon which then made her Countess of Snowdon. When Princess Anne, the current Princess Royal, married Mr Mark Phillips she became Mrs Mark Phillips as he took no title himself (although it is likely he was offered one) and again she retained her own royal titles. It is the same with her second marriage to Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Laurence (although with his knighthood she could use the Lady title).

I would disagree with davidg when he states "Whether Camilla becomes Queen would largely depend on the coronation arrangements as she cannot assume the title Queen without a coronation."

The crown and title is inherited upon the death of a sovereign, not upon the coronation of a successor and that equally applies to the wife of the new king. Queen Alexandra became Queen on the day that Queen Victoria died, not on the day that Edward VII was crowned as did Queen Mary on the day that Edward VII died.

There was a Queen who was actually denied a coronation and who is yet counted as a Queen consort - Caroline of Brunswick, the estranged wife of George IV who tried to get into the Abbey at his Coronation so that she could be crowned but was denied access. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_of_Brunswick

[creagdhubh]

Very interesting discussion everyone, thanks for contributing. A most enjoyable read!

Cheers,

[Richrail]

Very interesting discussion everyone, thanks for contributing. A most enjoyable read!

Cheers,

+***

[McFarkus]

Camilla will become queen upon Charles' accession to the throne. When Charles dies, if he is survived by Camilla, William will become the king, Katherine will become the queen, and Camilla would be the Queen Dowager, if I understand correctly.

That has been the standard practice.

The reason, as stated above, for male spouses of royalty (like Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh) who are not the sovereign (the reigning monarch, like Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II) was traditionally so the line of succession would stay within the reigning family and nt be transferred to a new family by marrying into the royal family.

Actually the name of the reigning family did change. For instance, Victoria was the last monarch of the House of Hanover; Edward VII was the first monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. George V changed the reigning name to Windsor during WWI because of the links of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha to Germany. In normal circumstances Prince Charles would have become the first king of the House of Mountbatten (or Battenberg), but Queen Elizabeth decreed "Mountbatten-Windsor would the personal surname of some of the descendants of Elizabeth II and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh under an ambiguously-worded Order in Council issued in 1960, and as such a cadet branch of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (known as the House of Glücksburg for short), which in turn is a branch of the House of Oldenburg.

Mountbatten-Windsor differs from the official name of the British Royal Family or Royal House, which remains Windsor. The adoption of the Mountbatten-Windsor surname does not apply to members of the Royal Family who are not descended from the Queen (her cousins, for example, and the descendants of Princess Margaret). The Order specifically applies the surname to those descendants of the Queen not holding Royal styles and titles, but Mountbatten-Windsor has been applied to or informally used by the descendents of Queen Elizabeth II that hold Royal styles, as shown at the marriages of the Duke of York and the Princess Royal, both having been registered with Mountbatten-Windsor in their entries in the marriage registers" from Wikipedia. The person, besides Prince Philip, whose nose was most put out of joint over this was his uncle the Earl Mountbatten of Burma.

Interestingly, the Duke of Edinburgh did not automatically become a prince (of the UK) when Elizabeth was crowned. It was almost six years later that the Queen gave him the tiltle. Before that he was styled as His Royal Highness, the Duke of Edinburgh.

Phillip was already a Prince of Greece when he married Elizabeth and thus was entitled to HRH in his own right. He was given the title of Duke of Edinburgh (one of the Royal dukedoms) upon marriage. The title of Prince of the UK was an additional honor.

[BCAC]

Jeez, I MUST be getting old! What on earth does +*** mean?