Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Phil]

@Phil I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from. I'm sure your statement is validated by some experience. But, for my part, in case your statement is in some way a response to mine, I'm an American of Scottish descent. I don't hyphenate nor do I pretend to be a Scot. I'm not of Scottish descent by the neighbor of my great aunt Fanny. I'm of direct descent and have taken the time and effort to know exactly where in Scotland my ancestors lived and to some degree the circumstances and movements of them within Scotland back to 1590. And, further validated that knowledge with DNA. Having said that, that doesn't mean I know a fig about kilts or how to wear them. Therefore, I'm grateful for a forum like this where such knowledge transfer can take place. I also would place no claim on current day Scotland or even Scotland in the last two hundred years.

However, my ancestors were just as involved with the previous 1,200 years of Scottish history as yours (if yours have been there that long, certainly not claiming any knowledge of your background just assuming en arguendo that you have a long history there). So, just as I have family pride in my more recent ancestors and their deeds and accomplishments in the last two hundred years, I don't draw some artificial line and pretend that there was no "before immigration." There was, in fact, a before and that before was in Scotland and so I have pride in that fact too. When I wear my kilt, I'm acknowledging that I know where I come from and honoring that. That pride and those reasons stand apart from the current inhabitants of Scotland. They stand on their own and need no validation. Hopefully, my explanation will assist you in understanding to point of view of some of us, similarly situated in the diaspora. Or, maybe I'm all alone on my own island. I'm fine with that too.

I have no issues with anything you say and your attachment to your ancestors' Scottish heritage and don't believe anything I have said contradicts that.
What seems to have escaped you is the concerns raised by neloon and others (including myself) namely the unconscious arrogance of the "Americans know best" attitude which appears relentlessly in postings here and elsewhere. For someone brought up and inculcated in this attitude this will probably be overlooked as an unquestionable truth. For others from a different background, however, this can appear patronising, even to the extent of sheer impertinence tantamount to "teaching your grandmother to suck eggs" if that is a saying familiar it you.
There is a fine line to be observed here and one commonly ignored but when it concerns something so central to Scotish tradition and customs no amount of reading or erudite study can fully compensate for an upbringing immersed in that culture. To then be lectured by some parvenu on the rights and wrongs of some nicety, particularly if reinforced by copious references to some learned tomes can cause a degree of understandable resentment.

[Tuirc]

Aye Jock. Thanks for the clarification. I went back and re-read your post. I would agree with you, but the analogy doesn't hold up. America has a very short history. Many of the combatants of our Civil war would have been here (their families) for less than 100 years prior. Then they would have come from somewhere else.

I'm a Gael. So, following your analogy, we came to Scotland in roughly 500 AD. We left, one way or another, before 1800. True enough, we came from Ireland and Spain before that, but 1,200 years in a place is a might different than 100. And, despite all that, I'd still say, that after the situation was explained to us (because we Americans have the attention span of a gnat and wouldn't remember), we'd have a special place in our hearts for those Bolivians of American descent.

[The Wizard of BC]

In an effort to get this thread back to the original topic and away from the political tangent it seems to be taking let me give a personal view to the question "Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?"

OK, first some personal history. I was born and raised an American. I have lived all over the world and circumnavigated the globe three times. I currently live in Canada.
Genealogically I'm a N. American mutt. I have found one of my ancestors who, on a US census form, states his father was born in Scotland. But that was five generations ago and if I want to go that far back that man is only 1 out of 16 grandparents.

A couple of years ago I visited Scotland on a business trip. It was the first time I had been to Scotland since I began to make and wear kilts, but I did not go as a tourist as much as I did as a kiltmaker.

I took no trousers. All the kilts I wore were full traditional looking Tartans.
Just so you know, this is how I was dressed for much of my trip.



And while in Edinburgh like this



I would like to relate a few of my personal experiences that may help the OP with his question.

In over two weeks, except for X Marks members, and those attending a Highland Games, I saw only one other kilt. That was on another kiltmaker. (see the photo above)

I came away realizing that the Scots do not wear the kilt except for weddings or other special occasions. I feel that the Scots view the kilt much the way Alex said, a garment worn by tourists while in Scotland.

Here is how I found the experience of wearing a kilt while in Scotland.

Personal experience 1 -

While at a B&B just outside Stirling I overheard our host explaining to the other guests before breakfast that I would be coming to the table in a kilt. She explained this by saying "Another American expecting to live the dream."

I found this attitude, if not expressed aloud, whispered just within earshot behind my back, quite often. In two weeks I was laughed at, stared at, snickered at, and made the butt of more jokes than I have experienced in ten years wearing a kilt in N. America.

To the OP. If you wear a kilt in Scotland expect to be viewed automatically as a stupid tourist. One who came to Scotland expecting to see something like a cross between "Braveheart" and "Brigadoon".
If you pass a church where a wedding is happening you may see a Scot wearing a kilt, but by and large you will be the only one wearing a kilt and you will be seen as a tourist playing make believe that he is Scottish.



Personal experience 2 -

My wife and I visited Edinburgh and walked the entire Royal Mile twice. Not to see the sights as much as to experience the "Tartan Tat Controversy" first hand. I visited as many kilt shops as I could.

I walked into one of the most reputable and well known Traditional Scottish kilt shops. The sales person was in the far back stocking some shelves. He was dressed in a navy blue two piece suit and tie. As I walked in the bell rang, but I was able to walk the entire length of the store before the clerk turned around from what he was doing. He greeted me with a haughty "Oh, another American tourist came to Scotland and bought himself a kilt."
I replied with "I'm sorry sir, I'm a kiltmaker and this is how I dress every day. And you sir, just lost a sale."

To the OP. If you wear a kilt in Scotland expect to be met with an attitude bordering on snobbery from those in the kilt business. I visited weaving companies that had never heard of The Scottish Tartans Authority. One weaving company did not have a single computer and used a file of hand written cards containing their Tartan thread counts. They would not even listen to a question why their thread counts were different from every one else. Their reply was that their cards were written "before the war" so had to be correct.
I visited kilt shops manned by staff that were un-informed or mis-informed yet fully prepared to tell me that only they provided a "proper" kilt and accessories. These same shops often had only pure white hose on the shelves, all the mannikins were dressed in ruche ties and there were only Prince Charlie coatees on the racks.
I walked into one shop wearing an 8 yard, 16oz, completely hand-stitched Tewksbury kilt and was told in no uncertain terms that because it was not made in Scotland it was not a "true" kilt.


Personal experience 3 - and I promise this is the last one.

While in Edinburgh my wife and I visited the castle. As we crossed the parade ground she wanted to get an ice cream from a truck she saw. I continued towards the castle bridge.
If, during the time it took my wife to get her ice cream and join me, I had put my hat at my feet, I could have paid for the trip charging for photos. I was photographed posing with Japanese ladies, German ladies, Italian ladies, American ladies, and even three Scottish ladies.
As most of the visitors had come to Scotland expecting to see men in kilts and I was the only person actually wearing one, I became, for a short while, their ideal of Scotland.

To the OP. If you wear a kilt in Scotland expect to be greeted, talked to, and approached for photos everywhere. And always by other visitors. The Scots will treat you with indifference and a raised eyebrow but other visitors will tell you about their great aunt Maud who was born in Scotland and told the most wonderful stories about "the old country". They will tell you how Scottish they are and what Clan they belong to. They will even interrupt your dinner at a restaurant to tell you how pleased they are to finally see a "True Scotsman".


I thoroughly enjoyed my last visit to Scotland. I met some wonderful people and had some very enjoyable experiences.

But you know what? If I go again, I think I'll break down and buy some trousers.

[Tuirc]

Well Phil, concerning that, I'm in agreement, but the way I take a lot of what you're talking about, as far a "instruction" is that it's targeted a neophyte wearers outside Scotland. I may have missed where someone from the US was attempting to tell a Scot the proper way to wear the kilt. If that happened, I'm on your side.

American arrogance, peoples that are successful become arrogant, I think. And, that arrogance knows no bounds. I think it's likely we'll all get to experience some Chinese or Indian arrogance before long. But, yes it exists and it's wrong and in this particular area misplaced as well.

Please no more Obama quotes so we can stick to the rules about politics on here.

[Jock Scot]

Tuirc.

A country has to start sometime and America chose to start theirs in, I think, 1775? For sure its a younger country than Scotland, but you can't have it both ways. You are I presume an American, with roots that go back to whenever? I am a Scot with roots that probably go back just as far, but do I hark back to my Norman roots no I don't.I am aware of them for sure, but I don't go round on a bicycle in a wasp shirt with a string of onions around my neck trying to "celebrate" my ancestry. Might I venture to suggest in a general sort of way and in the nicest possible way and with my tongue placed firmly in my cheek----that Americans start being Americans and get on with life, surely that is what your founding fathers intended? That does not mean that a healthy interest in your past could not be maintained, but perhaps a sense of proportion and a respect for other nations and cultures, baring in mind the Peruvian scenario that we have been discussing.

[neloon]

If I go again, I think I'll break down and buy some trousers.

Steve,
Please come again soon just as you are - nae breeks. You are an excellent advertisement for the kilt and who can tell what converts you may have made without ever knowing about it. I apologise on behalf of some of my fellow-Scots for your unhappy experiences. There are also some of us who are trying very hard to improve matters.

[Jock Scot]

I am truly sorry Steve that the Scots that you came across were not more subtle and discreet during your visit and I have to say that I am not surprised as the Scots in general are not subtle. However I am ashamed of my countryman's behaviour.

I also cannot fault you on your conclusions.

[Tuirc]

Now that I think we've gotten past the other stuff, I'll respond to OP concerning my observations when I visited Scotland in May/June of this year. I only wore my kilt on two days. One of those days I was having lunch at my clan chief's house, so I can't think of a better excuse as to why one is wearing a kilt in Scotland. On that day, we visited Doune castle and stopped at a roadside woolen mill. Like previous posters, up to this point, four days into my trip, I had seen no Scots and only one Asian fellow wearing a kilt. He was wearing a purple tartan kilt about mid-calf. At the woolen mill I saw a Scottish fellow selling something in t he parking lot. He was the only Scot I saw, other than my chief, that was wearing a kilt the whole trip. The fellow's kilt was a plain black kilt with black hose which he had pushed down "like air conditioning" he said. He was happy to see me in my kilt.

The second B&B I went to in a kilt, I was met by the proprietor who was surprised to see a kilt and asked about it. I explained I'd just come from lunch with the chief and he seemed even more flabbergasted at this possibility. I was kilted on my trip from Oban to Stirling and then wondering about Stirling and at the car hire in Stirling. Got a positive reaction from the car hire lass, but she may have just been flushed from the apparently famous Scottish footballer standing next to us trying to hire a car.

All in all, I wouldn't recommend going kilted in Scotland unless you have a particular purpose for doing so. Which is pretty much how I treat it here. Wore it for the Scottish walk yesterday. Had to stop off at the market after and did get a nice complement there. I'm fairly immune to whatever looks I get, I usually don't notice. So there could have been those in Scotland and I just didn't take notice. I'm going to the Lochearnhead games next year, other than that, I wouldn't be bringing my kilt.

[Phil]

Well Phil, concerning that, I'm in agreement, but the way I take a lot of what you're talking about, as far a "instruction" is that it's targeted a neophyte wearers outside Scotland. I may have missed where someone from the US was attempting to tell a Scot the proper way to wear the kilt. If that happened, I'm on your side.

American arrogance, peoples that are successful become arrogant, I think. And, that arrogance knows no bounds. I think it's likely we'll all get to experience some Chinese or Indian arrogance before long. But, yes it exists and it's wrong and in this particular area misplaced as well.

Please no more Obama quotes so we can stick to the rules about politics on here.

The Obama quote was not mine or one I have ever been aware of. This subject has probably over-run its course by now and I will not expand upon it further. Hopefully, however, some will have taken the message on board, particularly regarding the niceties of cross-cultural relations.
As for Steve Ashton's contribution, this comes as no surprise and has been covered extensively in previous threads for the benefit of visitors to Scotland. I am not sure that Scots will greet you with "a raised eyebrow" - in Glasgow for instance you may receive an altogether more vocal response.
I have said this before and will say it again - Scottish people are proud of their kilts which they mostly only wear on special occasions to grace the importance of the event. They love to see the kilt being worn but most will never wear a kilt themselves. The kilt has been portrayed in the media and also in folk experience of poor, dispossessed Highlanders as a throwback to more primitive times and for this reason is not an icon that many Scots people really wish their country to be identified with. Scotland is a modern, 21st century country with all the ambition and drive that that entails. To be identified by foreigners as simply a lot of backward, bog-trotting kilt-wearers with blue faces shouting "FREEDOM" is not where we are at. Perhaps we should start a theme park where everyone dresses in tartan, people dance reels and strathspeys to constant bagpipe music, lunch is oatcake & haggis burgers and knowledgeable Americans like Donald Trump can tell us how our tourist industry should really be run - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkEKv9N5Oo0 .
But then ... perhaps not.

[OC Richard]

I am not Scottish; my passport is Blue; the kilt (however much I love it and however often I wear it) is not mine; I feel no "ownership" of it. In my opinion that ownership belongs to the Scots alone.

I am a proud Appalachian; a mountaineer; a hillbilly if you please. We have our own ancient traditional "national dress" as it were, adopted from the Native Americans and adapted by us British invaders



Now I would never wear such a getup but our biggest University has a guy (or girl) who wears it all the time!

https://www.google.com/search?q=wvu+...w=1920&bih=943

And oddly enough just yesterday I saw a young lady walking around wearing a real coonskin cap, with the coon face on it!