Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Mael Coluim]

I resemble that.

...........

[Singlemalt]

I participated in this type of thread the last couple of times it came up and it made me so sad and angry that I vowed I would not get in a discussion of this type again. However since this one started 20 pages ago I found myself coming back to it again and again like a fool picking at a scab until it bled. I found myself tonight unable to retire without getting what I have to say off my chest. I have read post after post from our Scottish members bemoaning the ignorance of the diaspora about Scottish history, geography, politics and culture and their appropriation of the kilt. In almost every case they continue to refer to the diaspora as "Americans". Well sirs I respectfully submit you are exhibiting the same sort or ignorance and crude generalization that you accuse the worst of the ignorant tourist with his pleats in front of. I am a very proud Canadian of, as far as I know, 100% Scottish background. My Nova Scotia ancestors were granted their land in Canada for service with the British Army, much of it fighting Americans during the Revolution and War of 1812. I have to ask our Scottish members did these people deserve to be cut off from their history and traditions for offering their lives to preserve them? On my paternal side my Grandparents immigrated to Canada from Scotland with his wife and children in 1919. On the day of his landing in Quebec my Grandfather would have been able to vote and participate in public life, even run for Prime Minister, for he was a British Subject and as such an automatic Canadian, living under the same form of Parliamentary government and pledging allegiance to the same King. I am sure he never felt he was giving up being Scottish by moving to a British Dominion further to the west.

I can't go to sleep tonight without reminding you of the tens of thousands of Canadians who have died serving their Crown and Country kilted. From the North American Wars with the French in the 18th century, the American Revolution through 1812-14, the relief of Khartoum, the Crimean Wars, the blood baths of Passchendaele, the Somme and Vimy Ridge even to the massacre on the beaches of Dieppe in 1942 where the Canadian Essex Scottish Regiment were the first to hit German machine gun fire behind their pipers. Even to this day where every other night the TV news shows another one of the hundreds of young Canadians in coffins draped in the Maple Leaf piped on board the Hercules cargo planes for the long flight home from Afganistan, to the refrain of the "Flowers of the Forest". Sirs, you bemoan the ignorance of many from outside Scotland for their lack of knowledge of your history and traditions. However, I would say you also have a lot to learn about ours as well.

Sorry for the diatribe and the passion, it is meant in a respectful way but I could not sleep tonight if I did not take the opportunity to vent.

[ThistleDown]

I was born in Canada of a father born in Canada and raised in Scotland and a mother born in England and raised in Canada. I was educated in Scotland, then Canada, then Scotland, then England, then lived in Eire, then Italy, then England, then Scotland, then Canada and now have residences in both Scotland and Canada. Along the way I acquired UK and Canadian citizenships. Who am I?

Why 'me', of course. I am whichever of the two I choose to be because I am both. By citizenship. By culture I am both Scottish and Canadian because I was raised in a combination of the two (not, you will note, in an English culture despite my mother's origin). By ethnicity I am British.

My wife was born in Switzerland of a mother from the German-speaking part and a father from the Italian-speaking; she was raised in the German part, but lived in Brazil, Peru, Australia, England and Canada. She carries both Swiss and Canadian passports and so is both Swiss and Canadian, one by birth and the other by naturalisation. She is not Australian or Brazilian or Peruvian or English. Her culture is Swiss, her ethnicity is German and Italian.

I know that's confusing to some, but not to us. I respond to the Canadian census question in the same manner as my father and grandfather did, because the census in Canada does not differentiate between ethnic and cultural origin. There is a difference, but it is so subtle that even Statistics Canada can't separate it.

Ethnic origin refers to the ethnic or cultural origins of the respondent's ancestors. An ancestor is someone from whom a person is descended and is usually more distant than a grandparent. In the census, respondents are asked to specify as many ethnic origins as applicable and up to six ethnic origins are retained.

Ethnic origin refers to a person's 'roots' and should not be confused with his or her citizenship, nationality, language or place of birth. For example, a person who has Canadian citizenship, speaks Panjabi (Punjabi) and was born in the United States may be of Guyanese ethnic origin. Nevertheless, ethnic origin responses in the census are a reflection of each respondent's perception of their ethnic ancestry, and, consequently, the measurement of ethnicity is affected by changes in the social environment in which the question is asked and changes in the respondent's understanding or views about the topic. Awareness of family background or length of time since immigration can affect responses to the ethnic origin question as well.

To answer my own question, by culture I am Scottish and Canadian, by ethnicity Scottish and English (therefore British). By citizenship I am a Scot and a Canuck.

[ThistleDown]

I participated in this type of thread the last couple of times it came up and it made me so sad and angry that I vowed I would not get in a discussion of this type again. However since this one started 20 pages ago I found myself coming back to it again and again like a fool picking at a scab until it bled. I found myself tonight unable to retire without getting what I have to say off my chest. I have read post after post from our Scottish members bemoaning the ignorance of the diaspora about Scottish history, geography, politics and culture and their appropriation of the kilt. In almost every case they continue to refer to the diaspora as "Americans". Well sirs I respectfully submit you are exhibiting the same sort or ignorance and crude generalization that you accuse the worst of the ignorant tourist with his pleats in front of. I am a very proud Canadian of, as far as I know, 100% Scottish background. My Nova Scotia ancestors were granted their land in Canada for service with the British Army, much of it fighting Americans during the Revolution and War of 1812. I have to ask our Scottish members did these people deserve to be cut off from their history and traditions for offering their lives to preserve them? On my paternal side my Grandparents immigrated to Canada from Scotland with his wife and children in 1919. On the day of his landing in Quebec my Grandfather would have been able to vote and participate in public life, even run for Prime Minister, for he was a British Subject and as such an automatic Canadian, living under the same form of Parliamentary government and pledging allegiance to the same King. I am sure he never felt he was giving up being Scottish by moving to a British Dominion further to the west.

I can't go to sleep tonight without reminding you of the tens of thousands of Canadians who have died serving their Crown and Country kilted. From the North American Wars with the French in the 18th century, the American Revolution through 1812-14, the relief of Khartoum, the Crimean Wars, the blood baths of Passchendaele, the Somme and Vimy Ridge even to the massacre on the beaches of Dieppe in 1942 where the Canadian Essex Scottish Regiment were the first to hit German machine gun fire behind their pipers. Even to this day where every other night the TV news shows another one of the hundreds of young Canadians in coffins draped in the Maple Leaf piped on board the Hercules cargo planes for the long flight home from Afganistan, to the refrain of the "Flowers of the Forest". Sirs, you bemoan the ignorance of many from outside Scotland for their lack of knowledge of your history and traditions. However, I would say you also have a lot to learn about ours as well.

Sorry for the diatribe and the passion, it is meant in a respectful way but I could not sleep tonight if I did not take the opportunity to vent.

Thank you, singlemalt, for your very heartfelt contibution. The problem with XMarks and the wonderful thing about it, too, is that so many members are American that their way of viewing the world often takes over for a bit. It's folk like you, Colin, CDNsushi, Downunderkilt, Phil, JockScot, MacSpadger, neloon, Peter Crowe and many others who keep us mindful that this is an international forum of folks very interested in the kilt.

Sleep well.

[CMcG]

...
In general I think you, and the world at large are being far too hasty in expecting/wishing the Scots to move from their "conservative" position, if it ever does, but it just might and it would be nice to think that this adjustment might a two way thing...

I think such an adjustment would have to be a two way thing and that discussions like this are an important part of that. It is doubtful that either of us will be around in 100 years to follow up on the development of kilt konservativism, but if Xmarks is still around, we can be sure people will still be talking about it

I am glad that you have gained a better understanding of Scotland as a nation and no longer view our country as just some "region" of England...

To be fair, I never thought that Scotland was a region of England, but rather that both are part of the UK, although I have heard people with that misconception. Did I step in some trans-Atlantic "separation by a common language" in referring to the State as Britain or the nationality on a passport as British? I didn't think British and English were synonymous

... If people want to wear denim or cammo skirts or other such creations that is their choice, just please, please do not refer to them as kilts and by association a connection to a Scottish icon to which they have none whatsoever.

You probably know that some people call those M.U.G.s as an acronym for 'male unbifurcated garments,' though I don't think that term has caught on too widely. Companies, however, have kilt as part of their names e.g. Utilikilts, so there is little impetus from their side to use the more accurate term MUG. I know your countryman cessna152towser's has been known to enjoy MUGs and I wonder if he calls them kilts or not?

FYI, the Oxford English Dictionary accords the origins of the world kilt to the Highlands, but recognizes that it has achieved much wider currency in usage. Not such a good thing for preserving the connection of the word to a Scottish icon, when 'kilt' is also used for MUGs or schoolgirls' pleated tartan skirts:

"KILT: noun
A part of the modern Highland dress, consisting of a skirt or petticoat reaching from the waist to the knee: it is usually made of tartan cloth, and is deeply plaited round the back and sides; hence, any similar article of dress worn in other countries."

Oxford English Dictionary. Second edition, 1989; online version September 2011. <http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/103411>; accessed 17 October 2011. Earlier version first published in New English Dictionary, 1901. Bold added.

[TheOfficialBren]

I really appreciate Jock Scot's and Steve Ashton's perspectives in particular.

Personally however, given that I am literally capable of killing any objector to my own kilt-wearing before they had the remotest idea that they might have offended me, I will also state that under most circumstances I would never dream of wearing a kilt in Scotland, preferring to blend in to whatever extent any tourist can. It's a ninja thing, from my teachers in Japan.

A real warrior wouldn't toot his own horn but would excercise the discipline of keeping his tongue silent and his hands open for friendship rather than closed for battle. He would also know that mere words do not merit an unbalanced response.

[Steve Ashton]

Speaking now, not as a kilt maker or a kilt wearer but, as the owner of this forum, I would like to thank all that have participated in this discussion so far.

You have shown that this topic, that has ended before in anger, frustration and dissent, can be talked about civilly and politely.

I would also like to remind everyone that while the name of this forum is "X Marks the Scot" that it is not a Scottish forum. It is an international forum about the kilt. We come here to discuss and try to understand this garment we call the kilt.

While some of us have different views we share this one thing. Our love for the kilt. The strength of this forum are those differences joined by our common interest.

I think most of us realize that the question posed by the OP may never be satisfactorily answered for everyone. It may never be able to be answered.

As long as we stay focused on what brought us here, avoid comments and posts that serve no other purpose but to inflame, we can enjoy the company of other kilt wearers.

Congratulations to you all and let the discussion go on and on.

[Jock Scot]

Now hold on a minute Singlemalt, what you have accused the Scots replying to this thread is unfair and frankly just plain wrong. The title of this thread is " SCOTTISH OUTLOOK ON KILTED AMERICANS"and the OP's question was specifically American/Scots too. Had the question been worded differently then our answers would have been more inclusive and had they not been then you would have every right to have written what you did. BUT.................

Now I am sorry that the Scots have caused you such upset and baring in mind the above, should you care to wade through this thread again and read the Scots posts you will see that the woldwide Scottish diaspora are recognised, albeit in minor way. On reflection, I hope that you could reconsider the wording of your post.

To the Scots that have replied to this thread I must apologise for speaking for you without your permission and I hope my words are not too far out from what you might say.

[ThistleDown]

There are times when I would like to switch back and forth between identities on this forum just as you can, Steve, but regardless of that inability I would also like to say in a non-Moderator role how much I have enjoyed this thread. The patience, consideration and true desire to understand other points of view that marks the members of XMarks is best found, I think, in threads such as this one.

No, this is not a "Scottish forum" but it is virtually impossible to separate the kilt from its Scottish origins so we must discuss those origins ad infinitum. That is good because we all always learn a bit and a bite along the way.

The question asked by the OP -- as an American but probably asked on behalf of all non-Scots -- has been well answered, I think.

[neloon]

Steve,
An aspect that has been touched upon in this discussion is "What do Scots think about Scots wearing the kilt?" Debate on such a question might be of interest to all, Scots and non-Scots, but would undoubtedly be heated. As Forum Owner, how would you feel about such a new thread in which it would be hard to avoid political comment?