Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Domehead]

I see that this thread has now touched on an extremely raw nerve, particularly with the members of the diaspora who now feel aggrieved that they have supposedly been 'disenfranchised' of their Scottish identity by the comments here. I don't believe that this was ever anyone's intention rather, perhaps, a regret by the Scots that our compatriots have left and the only thing they are now interested in about their former home is a bit of cloth to drape about their waist.
Scotland is so much more than kilts and bagpipes, shortbread, malt whisky and Rabbie Burns and we wish people would recognise that and act accordingly in more tangible ways. One contributor said he overheard a B&B owner saying "Another American living the dream" which is pretty well what most of what is said here comes across as

Correct, for me it is a raw nerve. Like some others on this board (in this discussion) I was raised in a Scottish house, by a large Scottish family. However, my personal income prevents me from making the significant socioeconomic contribution to Scotland the collective "you" seeks. Therefore, the only thing I can do is give over my tourist dollars, buy imported single Malts, import fabric from small Scottish Mills, etc. That is my contribution.

As well, I (and others of my "ilk") try mightily to respectfully educate ourselves about our family's history, culture, language, geography, politics. However, the fact remains, (we are soooo often reminded) we are not Scotch. I cannot comment fairly on the effects of the SNP or current tax policy or efforts on independence or early 21st Century re-alignment of the S.C.O.T.S. regiments. That would be disrespectful and disingenuous. But, I can be literate/educated about it - be able to have a conversation and ask pertinant questions of Scotsmen in my area. I can spend time with the remaining members of my family and their friends. I can attempt, in an admittedly narrow way, to perpetuate those things which they feel differentiates them from the great homogeny that is American Culture.

Personally, I feel as if I am being held to a standard I can't possibly meet and then being held responsible for not meeting it.

[Tobus]

What Scotish people really want is people to bring their skills and/or investment to help make this country great rather than delving into what Scotland was a few hundred years ago.

Oh really? I was under the impression that native Scots have great disdain for people who move to Scotland, buy property, and try to get involved in local improvements and culture.

[Phil]

Oh really? I was under the impression that native Scots have great disdain for people who move to Scotland, buy property, and try to get involved in local improvements and culture.

I take it you are making a veiled reference to what is known here as "The Donald" that trichologically challenged gentleman who blusters and brays at all and sundry on the strength of having a great deal of cash. If so then you are perfectly correct - I think the words "grandmother" and "suck eggs" are apposite here. If you refer to those who genuinely integrate, listen to local views and become an asset in the community then you could not be farther from the truth.

[auld argonian]

Oh really? I was under the impression that native Scots have great disdain for people who move to Scotland, buy property, and try to get involved in local improvements and culture.

They certainly seem to have some issues with Donald Trump.

I dunno....I suppose that would depend on the person and what kind of attitude they brought with them. I'm not a Scot but I get the impression that those who get ostentatious aren't going to be welcome....hell, I don't welcome that attitude and I live in Chicago. Face it: nobody likes the guy who's "not from around here" and shows up telling you how to run things in your patch. I was brought up being taught that you are at your best when you're being amicable but not over-friendly, interested but not patronizing...generosity is expected but it should always be demonstrated with a bit of grace and should never be spoken about let alone bragged about...if you're fortunate enough to have wealth, you don't flaunt it. As I said, that's how you behave when you're at your best...you're not always at your best but that's what you strive for.

I do detect a bit of a subtext in some of the comments from members who are not citizens of the USA. I get the vibe that some of them may be making the generalization that the Ugly American is alive and well...that we force ourselves in situations, laugh too loud, brag too much, are too eager to please, try too hard and pretty much figure that we're the only ones here. I'm not sure that's fair especially among the members of this forum who are citizens of the United States. If anything, I've found more US Xmarksers have more of a "world view" than the average American. Lets maybe try to consider everybody as an individual here. The connections that many of us in the "diaspora" have to the Old Country are generations back so I'm afraid that many of us don't have that first hand knowledge and are somewhere on a learning curve about Scottish customs and culture both past and present...there seems to be some appreciation by the natives that we take an interest but I can understand how they might be a little taken aback by some of these sudden surges of enthusiasm wherin one of us "re-discovers" his connections to Scotland and then proceeds to celebrate it by buying a ton of kilts and start lecturing the natives on their own history and politics. Personally, I've taken the cue from some of our Native Scots members and have tried to moderate my enthusiasm and my gear-acquisition-syndrome.

Just sayin'...let's keep the discussion going...

Best

AA

[Singlemalt]

Now hold on a minute Singlemalt, what you have accused the Scots replying to this thread is unfair and frankly just plain wrong. The title of this thread is " SCOTTISH OUTLOOK ON KILTED AMERICANS"and the OP's question was specifically American/Scots too. Had the question been worded differently then our answers would have been more inclusive and had they not been then you would have every right to have written what you did. BUT.................

Now I am sorry that the Scots have caused you such upset and baring in mind the above, should you care to wade through this thread again and read the Scots posts you will see that the woldwide Scottish diaspora are recognised, albeit in minor way. On reflection, I hope that you could reconsider the wording of your post.

To the Scots that have replied to this thread I must apologise for speaking for you without your permission and I hope my words are not too far out from what you might say.

Jock, first let me say I hope your shooting today was successful and enjoyable, I wish I was there to share it with you. I have taken your suggestion and reviewed my post in the cold light of day and re-read some of the posts which bothered me the most and, with respect I will let my comments stand. You say I am wrong and you could be right, I have been wrong before, but I still see in many of the posts by our Scottish members a thread of three attitudes which bother me.

1. The diaspora are ignorant about anything but the superficial trimmings of Scottish culture, geography, politics and history. I do not believe this to be the case in my personal experience and in most (not all) of the postings I see on this forum. We may be a little out of date on some of the latest news items but are not nearly as ill informed as many of the postings, even since mine, imply.

2. Why don't you just promote your new countries traditions culture and dress? Well I submit that Scottish culture and attitudes have a lot to do with Canadian culture. I see it everywhere from our political system, churches and architecture, attitudes and history. The Canada of today is much more multicultural, urban and dynamic than the one of my rural youth but I still see these traditions today. My post touched on the military connection which continues to this day but I could have also mentioned sports like our national obsession with curling (we are after all much better than you now) and music where many of the top rated pipe bands in the world are Canadian.

3. Wearing the kilt outside Scotland is appropriating Scotland's national dress. Well I submit that it is impossible to appropriate something you never relinquished. Certainly in the family and area I came from we brought it with us because it was ours. I did not discover kilts yesterday, I wore one my mother made me as a boy to our Presbyterian Church in the village, I partied and pub crawled in an old military one while at University in Toronto, in the '70's, and I wore one,made for me, in the family tartan at my one and only wedding over thirty years ago (I will have to post the pictures some day if the rabble will promise to excuse my white hose).

I have to say there are parts of what you say which I can sympathize with. Some of the excesses (fly plaids, swordsman vests and gillie shirts) and lack of respect of a very few kilt newbies bother me as well but I submit they are the minority and I don't like to be lumped in with them. If is is true that most Scots care or think little about the diaspora there is nothing I can do about it except express how sad and disappointing that is to someone like me. I have done so and feel better for it.

[neloon]

Oh really? I was under the impression that native Scots have great disdain for people who move to Scotland, buy property, and try to get involved in local improvements and culture.

Yes, but "impressions", repeated often enough, become "myths" which, repeated often enough, become "facts".
I am here in the oil capital of Europe with one of the biggest heliports in the World (not good for kilts!). At my daughter's school, about 50% of the pupils are "non-Scots" and she makes no ethnic distinction in her friendships; nor have I ever seen any evidence of such among the parents. We share the school run with an English family where the son frequently wears the kilt to school (very smartly) and, like most of the other "non-Scots" kids, has a Scottish accent. I think some of these "incomers" enjoy being here and want to stay and some do not. And all that is fine. Please add to your impressions.

[Phil]

Correct, for me it is a raw nerve. Like some others on this board (in this discussion) I was raised in a Scottish house, by a large Scottish family. However, my personal income prevents me from making the significant socioeconomic contribution to Scotland the collective "you" seeks. Therefore, the only thing I can do is give over my tourist dollars, buy imported single Malts, import fabric from small Scottish Mills, etc. That is my contribution.

As well, I (and others of my "ilk") try mightily to respectfully educate ourselves about our family's history, culture, language, geography, politics. However, the fact remains, (we are soooo often reminded) we are not Scotch. I cannot comment fairly on the effects of the SNP or current tax policy or efforts on independence or early 21st Century re-alignment of the S.C.O.T.S. regiments. That would be disrespectful and disingenuous. But, I can be literate/educated about it - be able to have a conversation and ask pertinant questions of Scotsmen in my area. I can spend time with the remaining members of my family and their friends. I can attempt, in an admittedly narrow way, to perpetuate those things which they feel differentiates them from the great homogeny that is American Culture.

Personally, I feel as if I am being held to a standard I can't possibly meet and then being held responsible for not meeting it.

Nobody is holding anyone to an unachievable standard but the original question was asked and I am sorry that the answers are causing you so much upset. Perhaps it is best, sometimes, to just say nothing or lie and allow things to continue in blithe ignorance.
I apologise if I gave the impression that Scots have a begging bowl out looking for contributions. This is certainly not the case but it would be helpful if certain multi-national American-based companies could be persuaded to review how they manage their tax affairs rather than sucking profits out of the country for little or no return. As to individuals like yourself, it sounds as though you are contributing already to the economy of Scotland so thank you for that.

[RockyR]

What Scotish people really want is people to bring their skills and/or investment to help make this country great rather than delving into what Scotland was a few hundred years ago. It may massage their egos but it does little for the country beyond putting a few tourist dollars in the pockets of (by the sound of things) unappreciative B&B owners and their ilk.

I think you may be underestimating the role of Tourism plays in the Scottish economy a bit. Here's a quote from a Wikipedia article about it and a link to 2 articles where the facts are taken from. I'm not saying Wikipedia is 100% the most reliable for all things, but this gives a good idea:

It is estimated that tourism accounts for 3% of Scotland's economic output. Scotland is a well-developed tourist destination with attractions ranging from unspoilt countryside, mountains and abundant history. Tourism is responsible for sustaining 200,000 jobs mainly in the service sector, with tourist spending averaging at £4bn per year.[58] Domestic tourists (those from the United Kingdom) make up the bulk of visitors to Scotland. In 2002, for example, UK visitors made 18.5 million visits to Scotland, staying 64.5 million nights and spending £3.7 billion. In contrast, overseas residents made 1.58 million visits to Scotland, staying 15 million nights and spending £806 million. In terms of overseas visitors, those from the United States made up 24% of visits to Scotland, with the United States being the largest source of overseas visitors, and Germany (9%), France (8%), Canada (7%) and Australia (6%), following behind.[59]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Scotland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Scotland

Also, these articles speak nothing of the billions in exports of cultural products of Scotland (bagpipes, short bread, Scotch Whisky, highland wear, etc). Scotch Whisky is £800 Million per year ALONE. I would strongly suggest that exporting cultural icons is big business in Scotland... that which sustains thousands and thousands of workers.

I think AA said it best when he brought up the fact that Scotland seems to have an issue with Donald Trump, so it's not always roses when people "bring their skills and/or investment to help make this country great" b/c people coming to Scotland may have different ideas for the future of your country than you do. I would think that to be the height of arrogance and something not to be encouraged.

[JohntheBiker]

2. Why don't you just promote your new countries traditions culture and dress? Well I submit that Scottish culture and attitudes have a lot to do with Canadian culture. I see it everywhere from our political system, churches and architecture, attitudes and history. The Canada of today is much more multicultural, urban and dynamic than the one of my rural youth but I still see these traditions today. My post touched on the military connection which continues to this day but I could have also mentioned sports like our national obsession with curling (we are after all much better than you now) and music where many of the top rated pipe bands in the world are Canadian.

I have to agree with Singlemalt on this. Scottish culture is ingrained in Canadian culture; the fabric of Canada is woven with a lot of tartan in it. However, Canadian pipers or curlers are not generally celebrating their Scottishness, or living the dream, because many don't have any Scottish connections, at all. The kilt is very much a part of Canada as well and it is no accident that there are so many kilted regiments in Canada or that there is an official Canadian tartan. We gratefully accepted these gifts from Scotland and have made them our own.

Strangely enough, I am more comfortable wearing a kilt in Canada that I am in Scotland. Unless I was proposing to attend a function in Scotland where the kilt is appropriate - a clan gathering, say - I would not bother bringing a kilt at all. Different context, different connotation.

[The Wizard of BC]

Rocky and others have brought up an interesting point that should be fully discussed in another thread. (Which I am going to start)

Where did the world learn that white hose and ruche ties are the proper accessories worn with a kilt? I'm sorry but we learned that from the Scots. The Scottish websites, business and retailers taught us that white hose Ghillie Brouges and Prince Charlie jackets are the Kilt Uniform.

To expand this just a bit further, when we here, want to know about how to wear the kilt in any other way we must resort to raking up old photos from the 1920's and 1930's. What we see then are shepherd crooks and laird's plaids.

Where are the examples of today's Scots wearing kilts as daily wear? If a person, who in his native country wears the kilt, visits Scotland, he is then looked down on and is subject to ridicule because he has followed the only example he has.

Heck, I would get laughed at showing up to a function here in Canada if I dressed in the way Scottish companies tell me how the kilt should be worn.



Then further grist for another topic. Where are the examples of something, anything, other than the Scots themselves feeding the world the dream? All one has to do is watch the advertisements produced by Scottish companies for world-wide audiences. All we are given is the dream of castles and standing stones. Of red-haired lasses and braw men with bare chests and kilts.

It is no wonder many in the world have a warped sense of Scotland.

It is only very recently that we have had the internet and can learn about Scotland as it is today. One of the big influances on non-Scots learning about today's Scotland is this, and other internet sites, finally dispelling the myths we have been fed for so long.