Use of white in a tartan: condemed to look like a "dress tartan"?

[TheOfficialBren]

I'm no expert but EagleJCS makes a good point. I've also come across that view-point about "dress" tartans.

[Pleater]

I think that there are opposing cultural perceptions at work.

Way back undyed wool was the cheap stuff, colour, and lots of it, strong and bright was the expensive option.

Then white became the mark of someone who didn't work, spotless garments with a certain lack of practicality were the fashions of the upper and leisured classes.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[unixken]

Then white became the mark of someone who didn't work, spotless garments with a certain lack of practicality were the fashions of the upper and leisured classes.

I would also wonder if there was simply a very practical reason. Kilts with "less white" palettes would be less revealing of dirt and smudges, and thus be better suited to everyday activities... where "more white" tartans, could be reserved for occasions and activities where they are less likely to get soiled as quickly (thus negating the concern for hiding everyday stains?)

In other words, would I wear a white shirt while working on my car? No. It'd show every spot of grease. Instead, I'd save it for when wearing a suit.

Then again, maybe I'm just way off the mark.

[Domehead]

I am not speaking for Figheadair:

"No10. BLANKETT SETT for the 28 reed, 4 half Setts with a border...
There are several 18th century examples of similar type patterns with a white block as one of the ground colours. These seem to have been for domestic use such as bed coverings but by the 19th century they were commonly used by fishwives, women working in the fishing industry, as plaids. It is probable that blanket patterns gave rise in the 19th century to the concept of dress tartans." - The 1819 Key Pattern Book, One Hundred Original tartans, Peter Eslea MacDonald

This indicates a feminine utilization of, if not appeal to a "Dress" version of conventional tartans. Hence, the litany of "Dress" style Dance tartans. As well, some Clan Chiefs, the 13th Duke of Argyle among them, don't recognize "Dress" tartans as representative of the Clan. There are some vintage examples of tartans which utilize white - to give the OP some idea of proportionality:
1. Royal Stuart - Vestiarium Scoticum 1842 & T. Smibert 1850
2. Cluny - S. Adie c1850 which was later called...
3. MacPherson - D.W. Stewart 1893

As stated earlier, Figheadair, M.A.C. Newsome, RockyR, John of Keltoi, OCRichard - they are the experts and undoubtedly will make much better contributions.

[figheadair]

You may not be speaking for me but you, together with the replies at #10, 12 and 13 have pretty well wrapped up the historical origins and rationale for the modern dress tartans. I particularly like Ken's comparison with wearing a white shirt.

From a design perspective white, or any other colour for that matter, can be used as a stripe, to add emphasis, or as a ground colour. Aside from blanket patterns, white was only used in old tartans very sparingly to add 'light' to a design and often only as stripes of 2 or 4 threads per stripe. Light blue and to some degree pink were similarly used very sparingly.

[creagdhubh]

I am not speaking for Figheadair:

"No10. BLANKETT SETT for the 28 reed, 4 half Setts with a border...
There are several 18th century examples of similar type patterns with a white bock as one of the ground colours. These seem to have been for domestic use such as bed coverings but by the 19th cebtury they were commonly used by fishwives, women working in the fishing industry, as plaids. It is probable that blanket patterns gave rise in the 19th century to the concept of dress tartans." - The 1819 Key Pattern Book, One Hundred Original tartans, Peter Eslea MacDonald

This indicates a feminine utilization of, if not appeal to a "Dress" version of conventional tartans. Hence, the litany of "Dress" style Dance tartans. As well, some Clan Chiefs, the 13th Duke of Argyle among them, don't recognize "Dress" tartans as representative of the Clan. There are some vintage examples of tartans which utilize white - to give the OP some idea of proportionality:
1. Royal Stuart - Vestiarium Scoticum 1842 & T. Smibert 1850
2. Cluny - S. Adie c1850 which was later called...
3. MacPherson - D.W. Stewart 1893

As stated earlier, Figheadair, M.A.C. Newsome, RockyR, John of Keltoi, OCRichard - they are the experts and undoubtedly will make much better contributions.

In regards to the Macpherson Dress, I'd like to add that the current Chief of the Clan Macpherson (my Chief as well), Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, TD, recognises and approves the Macpherson Dress tartan as one of the official tartans of the Clan Macpherson. Actually, it has been this case for many years; at least since the early 19th-century when Ewan Macpherson of Cluny (1804-1885), Chief of the Clan Macpherson and Captain of the Clan Chattan Confederation, recognised the black and white based sett as the Breacan Glas, long before the Sobieski Stuarts made their presence known in Scotland. The Macpherson Dress tartan became all the more popular through the publishing of the Vestiarium Scoticum in 1842. Today, it is by far one of the most popular Clan Macpherson tartans amongst the clan and is usually only worn with Highland evening attire during formal events.

Macpherson Dress tartan woven by D. C. Dalgliesh.


http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=2713

Ewan Macpherson of Cluny (1804-1885), affectionately called, "Old Cluny" by his clan. Portrait was painted in 1882 by John Alfred Horsburgh, has been recently restored and is located at the Clan Macpherson Museum and House in Newtonmore, Inverness-shire, Scotland.


Sir William Alan Macpherson of Cluny and Blairgowrie, TD, affectionately called, "Cluny" by his clan. This photo of Cluny and I was taken at the 2007 Clan Macpherson Gathering and Rally in Badenoch. Here, you can easily see the beautfiul sett of the Macpherson Dress tartan.


Cheers,

[Domehead]

That is why I specifically said "some" Clan Chiefs don't and the reason I directed the OP to the Cluny / MacPherson from the portrait - a "vintage" tartan as a means by which the OP might gather insight.

This is not to question the authenticity of any "Dress" tartans. The premiss of this conversation seemed Avoid the appearance of "Dress" tartan v. Utilize white within a sett as accent or ground.

The Cluny / MacPherson has...
1. history pre-dating publication
2. utilizes white within the sett
3. is not the Clan's "Dress" tartan.

I thought this an effective, original example the OP might start with.

[creagdhubh]

That is why I specifically said "some" Clan Chiefs don't and the reason I directed the OP to the Cluny / MacPherson from the portrait - a "vintage" tartan as a means by which the OP might gather insight.

This is not to question the authenticity of any "Dress" tartans. The premiss of this conversation seemed Avoid the appearance of "Dress" tartan v. Utilize white within a sett as accent or ground.

The Cluny / MacPherson has...
1. history pre-dating publication
2. utilizes white within the sett
3. is not the Clan's "Dress" tartan.

I thought this an effective, original example the OP might start with.

Oh, I know what you meant, mate! I was simply adding additional information (a bit of background and more detailed information) regarding the Macpherson Dress tartan. What you mentioned in your initial post is absolutely spot and as it pertains to the OP, I agree with you completely. I suppose, I get a wee bit excited when people begin to discuss dress tartans, since the Macphersons have such a smart looking version of their own.

No worries here!

Cheers,

[Kinth]

Wow, I wasn't expecting that much information, thanks everyone !

So I now see the problem I had with my first design, as I was using white stripes that would have been of about 16 threads (for a sett of 250 threads), when I should only use 4...
I guess i's time to re-think it all and find a new pattern, keeping in mind everything that has been said, I don't want to end up with some unpractical tartan, especially if it costs me $800 to have a kilt done with it. :mrgreen:

[OC Richard]

About the grey MacPherson, DC Stewart writes

The tartan (175) [the one with the grey and black ground, and narrow red and blue stripes] stated by DW Stewart to be the earliest known to have been worn by the Clan, is reputed to have been used in two forms-as a Clan tartan with a white ground, and as a Hunting with the ground in grey. The design is doubtless old, but that any clan tartan in general wear for the kilt or plaid would have so much white in it seems highly improbable.

It's that traditional grey & black tartan which is seen in the 19th century portrait posted above.

About the white MacPherson he writes

The design (176) [white ground with three equal black bands] provided by the Vestarium Scoticum is known as the Cluny, and sometimes the Dress MacPherson. It was first worn by the Chief in 1829, when he was supplied with the sett [by the Allen brothers] in advance of publication.

I should point out that having three fat equal bands upon a solid ground is the very hallmark of an Allen Brothers design- they did a bunch of them like that. (The fact that the central black band has a yellow line in it doesn't put me off their trail.)

Here you can see three traditional MacPherson tartans in contrast with the Allen brothers' design in the lower right

http://www.lindaclifford.com/MacPherson.html

About the other white-ground tartan mentioned in the OP, Menzies, DC Stewart suspects that it originated as a pattern for hose. Indeed in 18th century portraits the only time you see red & white tartans is on the legs.

So neither of the tartans brought up as examples in the OP have any provenance as a traditional kilt tartan. (I don't consider the duping of a 19th century Chief as "provenance", when it's clear the white MacPherson was designed by the Allen brothers.)