Use of white in a tartan: condemed to look like a "dress tartan"?

[creagdhubh]

Richard,

With all due respect, I didn't "dupe" Ewen Macpherson of Cluny. And I would never do as such! My information in regards to the Macpherson dress comes directly from our own clan history and what Clan Macpherson historians and past chiefs have agreed upon. This is information that has been around for quite some time and is widely accepted amongst Clan Macpherson members who know their clan history, culture and traditions very well. Many would agree that the Allen brothers had a crucial part to play in the overall design of the Macpherson dress, but "Old Cluny" did as well and the latter is a rather important detail left out of the history books.

The Breacan Glas, or "the grey plaid of Cluny" was by far a more popular and earlier Clan Macpherson sett and did in fact have a white ground early in its creation. According to Clan Macpherson tradition, the white ground would eventually become soiled and dirty, thus turning it to a more grey hue. Eventually, the Breacan Glas with the fields of white, were replaced by weaving fields of grey into the sett. The overall sett design of the Breacan Glas is said to have been worn by Cluny of the '45 and this is recorded in Clan Macpherson historical records at the Clan Macpherson Museum and House in Newtonmore, Inverness-shire, Scotland. Our clan association is very blessed and fortunate to have highly dedicated, knowledgable and professionally educated historians amongst its membership. I take slight offence to part of your concluding statement. I think it was highly unnecessary and not very tactful on your part.

Let's get back on topic. Apologies to the OP for veering off topic a bit by discussing the Macpherson dress and 'hunting' tartan. As I stated previously, I suppose I just get a wee bit excited when a discussion of white in tartan and white based tartans is brought to light. I do apologise indeed.

Kindest regards,

[OC Richard]

I tried to be careful to distinguish between the traditional MacPherson tartan and the one the Allen brothers presented to the then-chief ("thre wyde stryppis of black vpon a quhite fielde").

I think I'm on solid ground saying that several of the then-current chiefs were "duped" because they accepted the Allen brothers' word that they had access to an otherwise unknown ancient source of authentic tartan designs, and wore these Allen creations and put their stamp of approval on them. At that time they didn't know any better; today we do.

You seem to imply that the Allen brothers were only partially responsible for the white MacPherson. What evidence is there that they collaborated with anyone on its design? Their MO seemed to have been to tell the chiefs that they were wearing the incorrect tartan; that they alone had access to ancient information as to the ancient genuine ones; then they would present the chiefs with their design. Their designs are usually quite easy to spot, being so repetitive. They did several of those "three stripe" tartans.

About the traditional grey-based tartan, what is its earliest provenance? I myself don't accept legend/tradition as "provenance" but mean hard evidence such as a portrait. Written accounts are obviously near-useless in tartan matters because of the difficultly of expressing tartan design in words. But still, an early account mentioning the wearing of a grey, or of a white, tartan would be interesting (though not establishing the exact nature of said tartan).

Various writers seem to accept that it's an old traditional tartan... but myself, I always want to see the actual evidence.

[figheadair]

Gentlemen, if I may I will attempt to calm the water and try and avoid stepping on any land mines (to mix my metaphors).

Whilst I have the highest regards for the work of clan historians in trying to preserve the past one needs to differentiate between demonstrable fact and belief. As a tartan historian I have to treat a statement such as The Breacan Glas, or "the grey plaid of Cluny" was by far a more popular and earlier Clan Macpherson sett and did in fact have a white ground early in its creation. with caution and ask 'When are we talking about and if before c1800 where’s the proof to support this claim'? Similarly, the statement that The overall design of the Breacan Glas is said to have been worn by Cluny of the '45 and this is recorded in Clan Macpherson historical records at the Clan Macpherson Museum... begs the question 'Said by whom and when and with what authority'? I think this is what Richard was alluding to. I'm sure that it was not intended as an attack on the MacPhersons but rather a tilt towards the OP. The issue, if there really is one, is over the term traditional design. Because Wilsons followed the historical practice of colour balance and position I would regard their designs as traditional as opposed to many that have sprung up since the 1990s but they were late 18th/early 19th century patterns, as Richard mentioned in connection with the MacPherson setts, and from an historical perspective not traditional Highland setts of the clan era.

I have discussed the authenticity of the so-called Crubin Plaid elsewhere on the Forum but the fact remains I am not aware of any of the MacPherson tartans that can accurately dated before c1780. There are of course the patterns from the c1660 portrait of Andrew MacPherson of Cluny but I don't believe they have been reproduced nor could they be with any degree of certainty as the painting gives an impression of tartan not an accurate rendition. No offence intended but a simple statement of historical fact.

[Kinth]

OK, I thank you all for your help, I now have a clearer vision of this topic, and am trying to find a pattern respecting those criterias.

[Domehead]

With deference to the OP's apparent departure, I do have a follow-on comment. Please all me to preface...

At one time I was involved in Deconstructive Literary Criticism. A specific novel was The Crying of Lot 49, Thomas Pynchon. The premiss of Deconstruction is to establish a "trace", then follow this trace throughout the literature to "deconstruct" the text as it stands - free from autobiography, history, sociology, psychology, etc. In the novel, the protaginist, Oedipa Maas, navigates her way through a mystery involving conventional v. underground postal systems (steming from a set of stamps on auction: Lot 49). As she peels back the layers, she becomes so unsatisfied and unsettled, she begins to question her own stability: Was she paranoid? Was she influenced by her late husbands historic legacy? Was there a grand postal conspiracy? Tartan history is very similar.

Thanks to significant contributions from both Figheadair & OCRichard, we know many vintage tartan origins are suspect. As stated, written documentation is sketchy and visual account is often scuppered. 17th Century portrait renditions are often impressionistic. The MacIan prints completely altered the Buchanan. Despite their quality, the MacLeay prints get questioned for the "costumed" portrayal of actual Highlanders. Recently on XMTS, someone posted wonderful pen-&-inks of early Scotsmen in Breacan an Fheil, in which all the tartan was on the bias. The question became was this characteristic or artistic interpretation?

And what of authentication, such as The Cockburn Collection, The Highland Society of London Collection & remnants from Culloden, as well the VS, Scot Adie, Thomas Smibert, W & A Smith & D.W. Stewart, to name the common canon. Peter Elsea MacDonald's recent work with the original Glenorchy illuminates, if nothing else, the impediments in ascertaining origin.

If we know these difficulties exist, perhaps we might mitigate them with "wont & use". Why can't we agree upon a touchstone and go forward?

Ex: MacPherson / Cluny
Vestiarium Scoticum 1842 - The Allan Bros. Sett. The publication itself lacks credibility & the Allan Bros. motivations are in question. However the Clan, through "wont & use" has deemed this sett the "Dress" tartan.
Patterns of the Highland Clans c1850s - The Ol' Cluny or possibly "Hunting" sett. The publication is more credible than the VS. The samples are actually woven. As well, the publication draws distinction between this and the afore mentioned "Dress" sett, only designated small.
The Authenticated Tartans of the Clans and Families of Scotland 1850 - Again, the publication is deemed credible. The tartans are artistic rendition, but the "samples" are distinct. The Ol' Cluny is designated Hunting and includes a grey ground - inviting critique of white, grey, soiled white or two distinct setts. As well, the publication draws distinction between this and the afore mentioned "Dress" sett. The setts are repeated elsewhere.
Old and Rare Scottish Tartans 1893 - The publication is deemed credible. The samples are actually woven of silk. The samples are repeated elsewhere and distinct. The Ol' Cluny is designated MacPherson and includes a white ground.

In addition to those sources, we have at least one portrait clearly showing the Ol' Cluny sett accurately and a litany of 20th century images from Clan MacPherson demonstrating "wont & use". Why is this not enough to designate a tartan credible on its face & "authentic" for the purposes of a touchstone going forward?
Otherwise, I fear we run the risk of peeling back layer after layer, satiating nothing.

P.S. This says nothing of the No 43, Kidd or Caledonia and its relation to MacPherson "Red" 58 & 70, The 1819 Key Pattern Book, Peter Elsea MacDonald.
Another MacPherson, which is "documented" in the KPB, Patterns of the Highland Clans c1850, The Clans of the Highlands of Scotland 1850 & The Authenticated Tartans of the Clans and Families of Scotland 1850.

[David]

Well, the question was because of my tartan design project, I was aiming at designing a general tartan, but my favourite design seems to have too much white... ^^
So I was wondering if there was a way to determine the "right amount" of it, appart from "I like it"... I'd like it to become my family's tartan, so I don't want to end up with something looking weird or being unpractical...
If necessary, after the "original" one, I will have time to think of designing the "dress" version (with more white), the "weathered" version, the "ancient", the "hunt", the...

Who says there is "to much white"? Its your tartan, if you like it, it's right.

[Kinth]

Who says there is "to much white"? Its your tartan, if you like it, it's right.

My mother said it, and if she says something, it's true (unless it's false) ^^
And if I keep in mind the "cleaning" problem, I should avoid having too much white, because I'm not sure my fiancée will accept easily to clean and iron my kilts and plaids every week... :mrgreen:

[Domehead]

My mother said it, and if she says something, it's true (unless it's false) ^^
And if I keep in mind the "cleaning" problem, I should avoid having too much white, because I'm not sure my fiancée will accept easily to clean and iron my kilts and plaids every week... :mrgreen:

Nice
In the end, I just wanted you to be aware there exist vintage tartan of historic edifice - be it sourced document or "wont & use" (in this case, validation through Clan usage itself) - which have white in the ground. Perhaps they will assist your efforts with proportionality and subsequent acceptance.

[O'Callaghan]

I'd just like to add that saints' tartans normally include white fields. Not much help from the OP's perspective, I suppose, unless you are trying to design a new sett for someone who has been canonised but not yet honoured with a tartan!

[Kinth]

Domehead: Actually, I've been looking at thousands of different tartan patterns, including many "vintage" tartans, but the main goal of my search is not to get it accepted from my family (I have to admit they don't care much).
The point is that I want to design something looking right, as many "registered" tartans look (to me) at least strange, and sometimes even against good taste and tradition...
I have the greatest respect for celtic culture and Scotland's history, so I'd like my tartan not only to suit me, but also to be a sign of this respect.

O'Callaghan: thank you for this precision, actually I was aware of this, as my name is Patrick, I've been thinking of adopting St Patrick's Irish tartan. The reason why I didn't is that I don't really like the sett (and green is not a color I like for clothing), and I want to get something my family will be able to wear too.