Tie with a Prince Charlie

[usonian]

And I wonder if the future bride has seen a real, hand-tied black silk bow tie (especially the larger styles) or is thinking of those dreadful small pre-tied waiter things?

I came in to say this exact thing. There's a big difference between an actual self-tied bow tie and the awful pre-tied, clip-on things that lot of tux shops offer because so many guys are too lazy to learn how to tie one. (Bow ties are not hard. They take a little practice like any kind of tie, but learning by video is much, much easier than trying to decipher written instructions with a diagram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJv4Qh7zR3E)

[Alan H]

Well, there are a number of good points made here.

- a PC with a long tie is sort of not how it's done.
- it's your wedding, so wear what you bluidy well want
- if you decide to wear something that looks odd, you might look back at the pictures in a few years and wince. Or....not.

- and finally, while you absolutely should work with your lovely bride-to-be about what clothes are going to be worn, as well as lots of other things about the wedding, there's a limit to this. There comes a point where it's YOUR neck and YOU decide what's going to go around it. Now, for some women, "The Wedding" is such an overwhelming, incredibly emotional time that us males need to be a bit more flexible than usual. Can do. However, if she's beyond all reason on every detail of the event, and MUST HAVE HER WAY in every single tiny detail, NO MATTER WHAT...

If she informs you in no uncertain terms that your opinion on the matter is irrelevant and that you WILL NOT wear a bow tie to HER WEDDING.....

....then I, personally would inform her that it's off, and run like hell the other direction.

[mookien]

Well, there are a number of good points made here.

{followed by a whole lot of "..."}

... then I, personally would inform her that it's off, and run like hell the other direction.

I think Alan summarized it pretty well. Now it's up to Guaranga and his fiance to decide. Good luck. I hope you enjoy your marriage and the pictures of your wedding many years from now.

[bikercelt1]

I don't have a PC, but if I did I would only wear it with a bow tie. Show your intended some episodes of Matt Smith's version of Doctor Who. As he says, "Bow ties are cool!"

Jamie

[Shedlock2000]

I don't have a PC, but if I did I would only wear it with a bow tie. Show your intended some episodes of Matt Smith's version of Doctor Who. As he says, "Bow ties are cool!"

And they are!!!! I've rocked one for years! I love them - but only the self-tie ones....... And, Dr. Who can't be wrong!

[Glen]

There is a popular misconception that the PC is at the top of the range - it is not. It is mid-range at best. Men want to wear their best for a wedding and mistakenly choose the PC as that jacket.

If we start at the bottom and work up.

1 - Tweed Jacket, no waistcoat - Day Wear

2 - Tweed Jacket, with a waistcoat (5 button) - Day Wear

3 - Black Argyle, no waistcoat - Day Wear

4 - Black Argyle, with a waistcoat (5 button) - Day Wear

5 - Black Argyle, with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

6 - Prince Charlie, no waistcoat - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

7 - Prince Charlie, with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

8 - Regulation Doublet - with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

9 - Sheriffmuir, with high cut waistcoat (6 button+) - Black Tie or White Tie

10 Montrose, no waistcoat - White Tie

NOTE - There are 1/2 and 1/4 stages in between each number.
a - Brown and Green Tweed is seen as 'Country' or 'Rural', whereas Blue and Grey Tweed is seen as 'In Town' and 'Business'
b - Waistcoats that are matching the jacket are one step higher than waistcoats that are complimentary colours.
c - Waistcoats that are bias cut tartan rank higher than straight cut tartan and both are higher than those in b.
d - Leather buttons are better than plastic, as are real horn or antler.
e - Real silver buttons are higher up the chain than steel cut and the buttons in d.
f - Argyle style jackets come in a variety of colours

These are just the major variations. There are dozens more subtle variations that are often not seen, but known only to the wearer.

The point being that the PC is a tuxedo equivalent. You wear a PC and you, more or less, have to wear a bow tie. Because that is what you wear with a PC.

One last little point, but the biggest overall. Are you intending on being an equal partner in your marriage? If yes, then you should really decide what tie you will wear.

Regards

Chas

The first I see Prince Charlies is in Highland Dress catalogues from the 1930s where they are spoken of as a newfangled thing suited to young fashionable men. Here they are in 1936



They're usually shown with wing collar shirts and bowties, or with lace jabots.

A good listing from Chas; however, as is seen in the catalog posting from OC, the coatee, nee PC, as introduced is shown worn with a white lace jabot, thus white tie, as is the Kenmore. To accept that the coatee PC is a pure tuxedo equivalent discounts the origin of the garment.

The best that could be perhaps stated as a generalization is that the solid colour Arglye, and similar jackets, which are always acceptable with a long tie, could be worn with a bow tie for some evening events, although there are clear good examples of other exceptions.

As well, perhaps unfortunately, the tuxedo is sometime being worn with a long tie.

Lastly, a mention of velvet is needed; being a jacket in velvet is at least 1/4 or 1/2 stage regardless...

[Shedlock2000]

Lastly, a mention of velvet is needed; being a jacket in velvet is at least 1/4 or 1/2 stage regardless...

Could you elaborate slightly here? Are you referring to velvet jackets, and what is the 1/2 stage reference?

I have always considered myself pretty up on etiquette - but being new to the levels and intricacies of Highland dress, I am learning a whole new world!

Does anyone happen to recommend an online write up on formal Highland dress which covers all of the benches? I have recently noted the post that mentioned a long hair sporran - and I believe there are dress versions of sporrans too. My father made my sporran years ago, and so I don't own any others. But..... JUST in case I trot off to a morning-dress event, I wondered what I ought to be wearing to be fully correctly dressed.......

[OC Richard]

as is seen in the catalog posting from OC Richard, the coatee, nee PC, as introduced is shown worn with a white lace jabot, thus white tie, as is the Kenmore. To accept that the coatee PC is a pure tuxedo equivalent discounts the origin of the garment.

Seems to me that Highland Evening Dress has always pursued somewhat of its own course, and there are some examples right there, a green PC worn with lace jabot and tartan waistcoat, a blue PC worn with wing collar shirt and black bow tie, presumably to be worn at functions where those in "Saxon dress" would be wearing black.

But as far as "the origin of the PC" goes, that's something that I've not been able to nail down. Highland Dress in general underwent a nearly complete transformation in the early years of the 20th century with an entire suite of new sporran species and several new Evening jackets. The Kenmore and Montrose are specifically claimed as new inventions by particular Highland Outfitters, but though these catalogues from the 20s and 30s speak of the PC as being new I've not seen any particular Outfitter claim it as their own. In short I've not been able to pinpoint the origin of the PC.