Kirk, church, chapel?

**neloon** · 1st February 13, 10:38 AM

Chas and Caol,
There is a slight problem with the Scots Wikipedia and many similar ventures. In order for Scots to be recognised as a free-standing language by the European Bureau of Lesser-Used Languages it must have a standardised spelling which the activists have been hard at work developing - as used in Wiki. But, of course, the vast majority of the activists are from the Central Belt because (a) that's where most Scots live (b) they are more aware of the decline of Scots than we are in the Northeast where Doric is still in reasonably good fettle - likewise things are good in Shetland. The resultant standardisation seems unappealing to anyone ouside the Glasgow-Edinburgh axis. For example, the Lowland Scots prununciation of "schuil" (= school) is "skill" but in the Northeast we say "skweel" - how can these be harmonised? Of course, this happens everywhere - people in the North of Enland can say "loov" if they want to but the standard spelling is "love". Now there certainly isn't going to be a war over this but it may give a flavour of where we're at.
Alan

**neloon** · 1st February 13, 10:43 AM

Bren,
My wife suggests that the following might be of interest to you

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Luath-Scots-...9730059&sr=8-1

I believe that the focus is on Northeast Scots and it comes with a CD. But I still think it would be quite hard for you.
Alan

**TheOfficialBren** · 1st February 13, 01:00 PM

Awesome! Thank you, Alan. I was completely unaware of pretty much all of that.

I "duig" what you are saying about needing to be around a language so sprinkled by local flair in order to catch onto it properly.

;-)

As far as standardised spelling, you're right. There are great challenges. Spelling doen't have an accent but with a wide array of accents there must be a compromise.

Have they cnsidered borrowing a spelling rulemthat I seem to see in Gaelic? I note the word that you taught me, "duig," along with "uillean" (union in Gaelic) and apply the spelling to the Scots word for "school" that you mentioned to become "skuil," or some variant thereof. I'm by no means a lexicologist or linguistics expert but it seems like common sense from here.

I think that the only examples of local languages dying out where I live would be various Native American tongues that fewer and fewer young people are taking up, opting to be strictly English- and/or Spanish- speakers.

Sorry for wandering OT. I find this subject fascinating!

**neloon** · 1st February 13, 03:23 PM

Bren,
Small comment. The uillean pipes were indeed originally called "union pipes" but "uillean" is actually Gaelic for elbow - because of the bellows action - i.e. "elbow pipes". In Scotland, bellows pipes in various forms are usually called "cauld wind pipes" i.e. not using the warm breath of the Highland pipes.
Alan

**Phil** · 1st February 13, 03:53 PM

In Scotland the local church is called 'the kirk' if it is the Presbyterian church and either belonging to the Church of Scotland or the Free Church of Scotland (sometimes referred to as the Wee Frees). The Anglican church in Scotland is known as the Episcopalian church because it is governed by the Episcopacy (Bishops) who, in turn, look to the sovereign as the head of their church to whom they pledge allegiance. Chapels are generally regarded as the meeting places of non-conformist religions such as Methodists, Baptists etc..

**McClef** · 1st February 13, 04:02 PM

There could be a Norse influence also as the word Kirk means Church in Norwegian.

**TheOfficialBren** · 1st February 13, 04:43 PM

Ah! Thanks for the heads up, Neloon.

**kilted scholar** · 1st February 13, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Phil

In Scotland the local church is called 'the kirk' if it is the Presbyterian church and either belonging to the Church of Scotland or the Free Church of Scotland (sometimes referred to as the Wee Frees). The Anglican church in Scotland is known as the Episcopalian church because it is governed by the Episcopacy (Bishops) who, in turn, look to the sovereign as the head of their church to whom they pledge allegiance. Chapels are generally regarded as the meeting places of non-conformist religions such as Methodists, Baptists etc..

However, in view of the OP's question, which related to the 1600s, we should note that in the 17th century neither the Free Church nor the Methodists existed, and Baptists were only beginning to emerge.