How did the kilt develop?

[neloon]

David,

There would undoubtedly have been many cultural contacts such as you suggest but all would have taken place long (seven or eight hundred years) before the coming of the kilt. We must not get into Hollywood anachronisms like "Braveheart"!
On the specific question of Dal Riata, recent archaeological findings by Ewan Campbell of Glasgow University suggest that the previous belief that any q-Celtic artefacts found in Scotland must have come from Ireland may well be false.

http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...scotsirish.htm

There must have been periods of close liaison across the water but equally periods of dispute. Peace treaties did not last long in those days!
Certainly current linguistic thinking is that p- and q-Celtic diverged far back in Gaul and that there were q-Celtic speaking tribes on the mainland of Britain as well as in Ireland - i.e. they did not exclusively emigrate from Ireland. Whether the Irish and Scottish tribes would have had any commonality other than language is not clear.

Alan

[David Thorpe]

...On the specific question of Dal Riata, recent archaeological findings by Ewan Campbell of Glasgow University suggest that the previous belief that any q-Celtic artefacts found in Scotland must have come from Ireland may well be false.

Coming from a Campbell, that doesn't surprise me at all. I have read several credible reports that evidence that the Campbells were once P-Celtic speakers (Old Welsh), while others including the MacTavish, many of the MacDonalds and other smaller Argyll clans were Q-Celtic, as were the Dalriadans as a whole.

Whether the Irish and Scottish tribes would have had any commonality other than language is not clear.

You might want to look into that further - specifically the Dalriada kingdom, which extended from northeastern Ireland to western Scotland, including many of the islands between, and lasted as a cohesive cultural and political unit for at least a couple of centuries beginning somewhere around 500 CE. I will have to revisit my notes to get you some references. Certainly there is more of a commonality between Irish and Scot Gaelic than between p- and q-Celtic, suggesting that the links between some of the Irish and Scots were considerably stronger than between Scots and Picts, Bretons, Norse, Angles and others following the exit of the Roman legions.

My apologies for the off-topic veer. All of this has very little to do with how or even where the kilt developed.

[Henry Mc]

Read these:

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/scottish-articles

Thanks Brian...I love this:

...a description of Scottish soldiers from the Hebrides in Ireland (fighting for Red Hugh O’Donnell in 1594) that makes clear that they had sufficiently different appearance from the Irish soldiers that an observer could tell them apart. They are described as wearing their belts over their mantles,which sounds to me like a description of the belted plaid — the first kilt:

“They [the Scottish soliders] were recognized among the Irish Soldiers by the distinction of their arms and clothing, their habits and language, for their exterior dress was mottled cloaks of many colours (breacbhrait ioldathacha) with a fringe to their shins and calves, their belts over their loins outside their cloaks. Many of them had swords with hafts of horn, large and warlike, over their shoulders. It was necessary for the soldier to grip the very haft of his sword with both hands when he would strike a blow with it. Others of them had bows of carved wood strong for use, with well-seasoned strings of hemp, and arrows sharp-pointed whizzing in flight.” (Quoted in McClintock, Old Highland Dress, p. 18: The Life of Aodh Ruadh O Domhnaill transcribed from the book of Lughaid O’Cleirigh. Irish Texts Society’s publications, vol. XLII. Part I. Page 73.)


Brilliant, thats an amazing description and I agree, its undoubtedly the filleadh mór thats being described.

[Henry Mc]

Not to derail the discussion, but my understanding is that Dalriada spanned northeastern Ireland and some of western Scotland as a single kingdom. Would that not suggest that parts of what is now Scotland had extensive cultural ties with parts of Ireland? Were there not more defined cultural differences between the Dalriadans and the Picts, Bretons, Norse and Angles than between the Dalriadans in Ireland and western Scotland?
More to the point of discussion, since the kilt is now associated with the Highlands, could there not be Pictish and Norse influences which were more significant than those of Ireland?

I would agree with the first part of that, not so much the second part

[Dale Seago]

My apologies for the off-topic veer. All of this has very little to do with how or even where the kilt developed.

Perhaps, but it's certainly fascinating. The article linked indicates that Ireland and Scotland were both inhabited by Gaelic speakers from at least the Iron Age, rather than there having been a major population influx/colonization of Argyll by the Irish Gael much later, in the early centuries A.D.

[David Thorpe]

...Ireland and Scotland were both inhabited by Gaelic speakers from at least the Iron Age, rather than there having been a major population influx/colonization of Argyll by the Irish Gael much later, in the early centuries A.D.

I don't see where the two juxtaposed parts of that statement are necessarily mutually exclusive. While it appears likely that the Irish Sea was a two-way thoroughfare as soon as boats capable of making the journey were available, that in no way excludes a major migration in the westerly direction after the Romans left.

[Henry Mc]

I don't see where the two juxtaposed parts of that statement are necessarily mutually exclusive. While it appears likely that the Irish Sea was a two-way thoroughfare as soon as boats capable of making the journey were available, that in no way excludes a major migration in the westerly direction after the Romans left.

Another interesting thing about that was that the encroaching English used to refer to the Highlanders as speaking 'Irish'...thats from memory, I've no link, sorry...

[TheOfficialBren]

Regardless of all of that it is somewhat irrelevant, isn't it? By the time the kilt came into existence the Scottish culture had significantly diverged away from the Irish-Gaelic culture.

[David Thorpe]

Regardless of all of that it is somewhat irrelevant, isn't it?

Irrelevant? No. Not related to the when and where of the origin of the kilt? Probably (as already stated).

By the time the kilt came into existence the Scottish culture had significantly diverged away from the Irish-Gaelic culture.

We don't know that. The problem is fixing a time of the kilt's origin. The earliest archaeological evidence does not preclude the possibility that it happened before the date of that particular find. Therefore, even if there were evidence of kilts being worn in Ireland before the earliest evidence of their being worn in Scotland, that does not preclude the possibility that they were worn earlier in Scotland - only that no evidence has yet been found. Definitive proof either way is highly unlikely.

[Woodsheal]

Another interesting thing about that was that the encroaching English used to refer to the Highlanders as speaking 'Irish'...thats from memory, I've no link, sorry...

All things Gaelic were collectively referred to as "Irish" for quite a long time, by the English and lowlanders. One of the chronicles of William Wallace (Blind Harry's, I believe) has some English men-at-arms mocking Wallace for wearing an "Irish cloak" - presumably tartan. The highlanders were called the "wild Irish" of the mountains. The distinctive basket-hilt sword that began to be associated with highlanders in the late 1500s was called an "Irish hilt"....