Tie with a Prince Charlie

[Domehead]

Following all these threads were some say this and the rules say that...
The recently retired President of the Scottish Heritage Society of the Rochester Area, Inc., as well a Royal Airforce Retiree & Dunblane School educated and certified Highland Regimental Dancer & Instructor wears his RAF tie with "evening" dress to every formal event he attends - which includes his PC & 3-button. Now, perhaps because he was the president or because we tend to be polite in the main, I never batted an eye.

[OC Richard]

as is seen in the catalog posting from OC Richard, the coatee, nee PC, as introduced is shown worn with a white lace jabot, thus white tie, as is the Kenmore. To accept that the coatee PC is a pure tuxedo equivalent discounts the origin of the garment.

Seems to me that Highland Evening Dress has always pursued somewhat of its own course, and there are some examples right there, a green PC worn with lace jabot and tartan waistcoat, a blue PC worn with wing collar shirt and black bow tie, presumably to be worn at functions where those in "Saxon dress" would be wearing black.

But as far as "the origin of the PC" goes, that's something that I've not been able to nail down. Highland Dress in general underwent a nearly complete transformation in the early years of the 20th century with an entire suite of new sporran species and several new Evening jackets. The Kenmore and Montrose are specifically claimed as new inventions by particular Highland Outfitters, but though these catalogues from the 20s and 30s speak of the PC as being new I've not seen any particular Outfitter claim it as their own. In short I've not been able to pinpoint the origin of the PC.

[Tim Little]

In short I've not been able to pinpoint the origin of the PC.

That sounds like it would be a fascinating research project, however (hint, hint).

[Phil]

Interesting that OC Richard's catalogue describes this as a Kenmore



whereas Stewart Christie call it a Montrose doublet. By the look of the style of the illustrations I would imagine both are roughly contemporary. Yet another example of each outfitter choosing their own name.

They illustrate the PC with a bow tie not a jabot and I have never known a jabot worn with a PC in recent times (except by the likes of Sean Connery) but it must have been acceptable at one time.

I wonder if the style of the PC is derived from a tail coat as it has vestigial tails at the back, unlike the tashes seen on doublets, and is cut much like a tail coat at the front. It certainly has no resemblance to a dinner jacket (tuxedo).

[creagdhubh]

Interesting that OC Richard's catalogue describes this as a Kenmore



whereas Stewart Christie call it a Montrose doublet. By the look of the style of the illustrations I would imagine both are roughly contemporary. Yet another example of each outfitter choosing their own name.

Quite right, Phil.

I love this attire! Very simple, understated and elegant...with the right amount of "flash" and glittering gear in the right places. I have always thought of the Kenmore as single-breasted and the Montrose as double breasted (This is how Kinloch Anderson approaches it, but then there is also the Balmoral doublet, which is similar to the Kenmore). I much prefer the look of the Kenmore, especially in coloured velvet. Both doublets; however, look best on a lean figure, whereas the open doublets of the Sheriffmuir and Regulation tend to look smart on men of varying degrees of girth. The latter is of course, my own opinion.

Cheers,

[Phil]

Quite right, Phil.

I love this attire! Very simple, understated and elegant...with the right amount of "flash" and glittering gear in the right places. I have always thought of the Kenmore as single-breasted and the Montrose as double breasted (This is how Kinloch Anderson approaches it, but then there is also the Balmoral doublet, which is similar to the Kenmore). I much prefer the look of the Kenmore, especially in coloured velvet. Both doublets; however, look best on a lean figure, whereas the open doublets of the Sheriffmuir and Regulation tend to look smart on men of varying degrees of girth. The latter is of course, my own opinion.

Cheers,

I am not exactly "sylph-like" these days but this is my Montrose in blue velvet -

and it can be worn unbuttoned if things get a bit hot.

[creagdhubh]

I am not exactly "sylph-like" these days but this is my Montrose in blue velvet -

and it can be worn unbuttoned if things get a bit hot.

Very smart, Phil!

[OC Richard]

That's strange, that old catalogue illustrating a Kenmore and calling it a Montrose.

The 1936 Anderson catalogue specifically claims that their firm invented the Kenmore:



BTW my Lawrie catalogue from c1930 (and possibly from as early as 1926) only gives the Doublet and Coatee.

My three Paisley catalogues from c1930 give the Montrose only as a child/youth "costume suitable for 7-17 years". The regulation doublet is called either the "Deeside" or the "Strathmore" and is listed as being for "men and young men from 16 years".

The Prince Charlie Coatee, alone, is listed as the "correct dress for gentlemen's evening wear".

[Phil]

That's strange, that old catalogue illustrating a Kenmore and calling it a Montrose.

The 1936 Anderson catalogue specifically claims that their firm invented the Kenmore:

Kinloch Anderson & Stewart Christie were competitors on George Street here in Edinburgh before they moved and no doubt would not be averse to 'pinching' each others designs. Stewart Christie will still make the jackets and kilts in their catalogue to this day (mine being an example) whereas Kinloch Anderson buy theirs in to sell 'off the peg'. They still hand made kilts in house 5 years ago but I have no idea if they still do even that now.
Paisleys are long gone - my brother got his tropical whites there 40-odd years ago when they had a shop down near the Clyde in Glasgow and Lawrie rings a bell but I can't recall them. Forsyths were the big gentlemen's outfitters in Glasgow but disappeared by the 1980's.
If I remember correctly, the dress of choice from the 1950's until probably the 1970's was a Montrose doublet with jabot (e.g. Kenneth McKellar, Andy Stewart et al) after which the PC took over as the ubiquitous jacket. Perhaps central heating and the hire industry was the driving force there and it is also a more forgiving garment for an expanding waistline. The Kenmore I illustrated has a quilted lining but at least can be worn unbuttoned as the evening goes on.

[creagdhubh]

Stewart Christie will still make the jackets and kilts in their catalogue to this day (mine being an example) whereas Kinloch Anderson buy theirs in to sell 'off the peg'. They still hand made kilts in house 5 years ago but I have no idea if they still do even that now.

Kinloch Anderson can make any of their jackets and doublets to one's measurments. They still make hand-stitched kilts too. I should know, as I own a few kilts and a couple of evening jackets/doublets, all bespoke (not off the peg), from Kinloch Anderson.