Pros and Cons of Montrose ans Sheriffmuir coatees?

[unixken]

As the one who opened this thread, I don't mind.

[Father Bill]

Thanks Ken. Why do the Rabble always get on so well?

[Tobus]

That's so cool there, Matt!

As usual I take "the long view" of things, and I'm not a fan of the standup-collar formal jackets. Why all of these standup-collar jackets suddenly appeared in the early 20th century who can say, but throughout the last three-quarters of the 19th century and into the beginning of the 20th century nearly all civilian Highland jackets had ordinary collars with lapels, worn with ordinary shirts of the period and ordinary neckties. The standard jacket was the type which evolved into what we now call the "Regulation Doublet". In the old days it was simply called a Doublet.

Then in Highland Dress catalogues in the 1920s a suite of new jackets appeared, the Montrose, the Kenmore, the Prince Charlie. These are spoken of in old catalogues as being recent inventions and being suitable for young, fashionable men while the traditional Doublet was spoken of as being appropriate for older men. At the same time lace jabots became popular, something very rarely seen in the previous three-quarters of a century. (When did the Sherriffmuir appear? It's not in any of my catalogues from the 1920s and 1930s.)

Perhaps WWI had just concluded and the military-style standing collar was viewed as being fashionable? Or people were nostalgic about the jackets of the early 19th century with their very high standing collars? Who can say.

I myself prefer the c1840-1920 look of the Doublet, with ordinary collar and lapels, over these 20th century jackets with militaryesque standing collars.

Here's an old thread I started, back before I had collected a load of old Highland Dress catalogues... now I know that the style of jacket in question was called the "doublet", but I still don't know what the "Celtic" jacket mentioned in that old Henderson catalogue might have been.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-jacket-55129/

I somehow missed this post before, so I apologize for the late reply.

Richard, I know you're well-versed in Highland dress, and you've studied it a lot more than I have. But I am not sure I agree with your assertion that standing collars disappeared in civilian dress in the latter half of the 19th century. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all the proper terminology for the different types of doublets with their minor differences, but as to the point of standing collars, it seems to me that they were very much alive and well, at least in the 1850s-1860s when MacLeay did his portraits. I would presume that they didn't disappear immediately after these portraits, either.

While it's true that the majority of the subjects were wearing ordinary collars and lapels, I see a few that were wearing standing collars with closed-front jackets/doublets. And I'm going to assume these are not military uniform jackets, since they are not the standard red jackets of the British Army (please correct me if I'm wrong on that point). With the exception of one that I know of who was indeed wearing a red jacket with chevrons on the sleeve, the rest seem to be wearing charcoal doublets with standing collars that bear no military insignia or colours.

Are these jackets below considered civilian doublets? Some of them look similar to the one Matt was wearing in the photos above, except that they are worn buttoned at the front instead of open. The overall presentation of the outfits seem rather martial (considering the weaponry and such), and the jackets seem like a military style, but they don't look like military uniforms to me. Again, I'm not very well studied on uniforms of that era, so if these are indeed military jackets, please correct me. I was under the assumption that these were just civilian doublets.

[unixken]

When I first started this thread, I was planning what I would do with my income tax refund. My thoughts, at the time, were for a single hand-sewn kilt from a Dalgeish short fabric run, and a doublet of some kind. But as I considered that my opportunities for wearing a kilt in general, were far more frequent than those requiring a snazzy doublet, I ultimately opted to get two kilts, instead.

I still would very much like to have a high-end doublet, and in that regard I'm glad this thread has been rekindled. I've decided on the sheriffmuir for myself, when I do ultimately purchase (and I have to say, I'm drooling over Matt's tweed!) But I think the thread is of value to others who would also be considering the high end of the kilted apparel spectrum.

[Domehead]

For what it's worth,
I ordered my Sheriffmuir from Kinloch-Anderson - with my tax return. It is being made in Sea Green Lovat with matching tweed buttons. I did this specifically because of Mr. Newsome's 8-panel image. I feel I'll get more use of the coatee beyond usual "black tie" events being tweed (with waist-coat & neck tie). If I'd commissioned velvet or Barathea, Im affraid the formality outstrips the price/use ratio. Here is a picture, from the Kinloch-Anderson page, modeling Sheriffmuir I ordered:



I put "tweed" en quote because this specific image may not be tweed. However, KA are clearly advertising something other than traditionally associated fabrics. I quite like Matthew's approach. Thus, I decided to have my Sheriffmuir done in Sea Green Lovat offered by Kinloch-Anderson - something non-traditional for a traditonally cut coatee.
Just my two cents.

[creagdhubh]

But I think the thread is of value to others who would also be considering the high end of the kilted apparel spectrum.

***

[creagdhubh]

For what it's worth,
I ordered my Sherrifmuir from Kinloch-Anderson - with my tax return. It is being made in Sea Green Lovat with matching tweed buttons. I did this specifically because of Mr. Newsome's 8-panel image. I feel I'll get more use of the coatee beyond usual "black tie" events being tweed (with waist-coat & neck tie). If I'd commissioned velvet or Barathea, Im affraid the formality outstrips the price/use ratio. Here is a picture, from the Kinloch-Anderson page, modeling Sherrifmuir I ordered:



I put "tweed" en quote because this specfific image may not be tweed. However, KA are clearly advertising something other than traditionally associated fabrics. I quite like Matthew's approach. Thus, I decided to have my Sherrifmuir done in Sea Green Lovat offered by Kinloch-Anderson - something non-traditional for a traditonally cut coatee.
Just my two cents.

Kinloch Anderson....nice choice! My black barathea Regulation doublet, green velvet Coatee, and tartan waistcoats (3 button for Highland evening attire) are all from KA. I couldn't be happier with the quality and fit.

Cheers,

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Myself, I'd love to know where you may have sourced that beautiful tweed Sheriffmuir. I've looked online, but can only find black barathea.

I had it made bespoke. I had purchased the Harris Tweed cloth at an earlier date and sent it to a tailor in Glasgow to have it made into a sheriffmuir for me. I suspect that if you start a conversation with a Highland dress supplier who offers bespoke doublets you'll find they could make a sheriffmuir for you out of many different fabrics other than the usual black barathea, including velvet and -- if you ask for it -- tweed. Keep in mind a formal cut doublet such as this made from tweed is a bit of an odd duck, though.

[unixken]

Keep in mind a formal cut doublet such as this made from tweed is a bit of an odd duck, though.

Well, I don't really need another black jacket. I have enough black in my closet. And it may seem sacrilegious to some, but I don't think I could ever live with a velvet doublet... it would remind me too much of black-light head shop posters, and tacky portraits of Elvis. But something in a nice neutral Harris Tweed...

In other words, I'm not always drawn to the conventional, and in fact can be put off by it. On the other hand, I like ducks... even the occasional odd ones.

[OC Richard]

Yes in my post I said "nearly all" thus acknowledging that of the 56 kilted men in The Highlanders of Scotland, one of the men, Angus Colquhoun, is clearly wearing a civilian jacket with a standing collar.

Lachlan MacLean has his beard coving his collar.

Another man, Robert MacNab, is clearly wearing a jacket with a turned-down collar, not a standing collar. (I have the book in front of me.)

I stand by the general impression of high standing collars being in vogue in the early 19th century but being very much out of vogue by mid-century only to come back into vogue with the introduction of the Montrose and Kenmore doublets in the early 20th century.

I have hundreds of photos of men in Highland Dress taken in the 1860-1920 period and the vast majority show the "doublet", a jacket with flaps and open collar and lapels. Standing-collar jackets were, evidently, rather rare in this period.

BTW the title of this thread should be addressed: only the Prince Charlie is referred to as a "coatee" in the old catalogues. Jackets with Inverness skirts (regulation and Kenmore) are called "doublets" and the Montrose is called a "jacket" in my old catalogues. (Coatees were worn in the Army from 1800 to 1855 and the Prince Charlie strikes me as a conscious revival of that look.)