Scottish outlook on kilted Americans?

[Nathan]

My roots go back to both Cape Breton (MacLeods from St. Ann's) and the Scottish communities of Eastern Ontario and my feelings on the matter mirror your own. However, through this forum I have learned to respect people who love the kilt without having a drop of Scottish blood and be a bit more sensitive to the native Scots who fear their "national dress" is being appropriated, though I don't think I fully understand either.

Hey Singlemalt, thanks for chiming in! I agree with everything you said. I'll just add that in terms of "national dress", there's two definitions of nation.
Wikipedia was the easiest source for this common fact:

"A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders.

However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.[2]["

So is the kilt the "National Dress" of Scotland or the "National Dress" of the Scots? I think the answer is both. You and I, Singlemalt, have one reason to wear our national dress proudly and someone named Chiam Goldberg from Glasgow is also wearing his national dress when he wraps the tartan around his waist.

I can't speak for an ethnic German in Germany who takes a liking to Kilts, but as for me, I'm not appropriating anything...

Again, I'm not disrespecting anyone, but I am demanding nobody disrespect me...

Here's one for the Scots of Western Canada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6KBf16qJIY

[AJBryant]

someone named Chiam Goldberg from Glasgow

Well, you know.... Goldberg *is* a sept of the Clan MacCabee. ;)

[Nathan]

Well, you know.... Goldberg *is* a sept of the Clan MacCabee. ;)

Hahahahahaa!! Nice one!

[AJBryant]

Hahahahahaa!! Nice one!

Thank you! I'll be here all week. Tip your waitress. Try the veal.

[Phil]

I know this is an older thread, so forgive me for reviving it - but it occurs to me that although Scotland adopted the kilt as a national dress, to be fair, it is really a Highland form of dress. As a Gael from a bona fide Gaeltachd, I'm just as much a decendant of those kilt wearing Highlanders as a present day Scot.

Indeed and I don't believe that anyone is disputing your claim to be a Canadian with Scottish ancestry. If we are to be fair, where, exactly, do you draw this line beyond which the "bona fide Gaeltachd" does not exist? Is it perhaps north of Glasgow, although I should point out that Ayrshire and the South West of Scotland was predominantly Gaelic-speaking at one time. Perhaps it is "Doric??" - speaking Glasgow which is bounded to the north by the lands of the Lennox, the Galbraiths, the Buchanans, the Colquhouns, Grahams and others. Perhaps North Ayrshire, except that is the home of the Russell clan. So perhaps you might appreciate that the home of the kilt is not just so nicely defined as you seem to think and does not simply belong to a few distant misty glens far to the north of Scotland.

Why are the Glens of the Scottish Highlands so empty? It's because we were all evicted and moved to Nova Scotia, Glengarry, Ontario, New Zealand, Virginia, the Carolinas, Australia... to make room for the Cheviot sheep whose products we hold so dear.

And to return to those empty, misty glens which you depict so wistfully, denuded of your ancestors. Most travelled south to Glasgow from where some took ship to the then colonies as you describe. They were not just piled onto ships, however, but had to have the wherewithal to pay the fare and, because many did not they were obliged to stay in that "Doric??" speaking abomination (Glasgow) where they found work and remained and where their descendants still live to this day.

It might be the national dress of a Doric speaking Glaswegian, but it was the clothing of my forefathers, not his (well maybe some of his;).

And finally, Doric is. in fact, the particular version of Scots or Lallans spoken by the people of Aberdeen-shire and the north-east of Scotland. Nowhere near Glasgow as a matter of fact. I did occasionally meet a Doric speaker in Glasgow but they are not to be found in great numbers there.

Again I must hark back to earlier comments about "teaching your granny to suck eggs" and re-iterate that it does no-one any favours when foreigners with little more than a sketchy knowledge gleaned from whatever unreliable sources available to them presume to lecture the inhabitants of another country about matters of which they know very little in reality.

At this point I really do think this thread should be consigned to the pages of history ::dead::

[Jack Daw]

I have several CDs of The Corries singing quite a few American folk tunes like, "Oh, Shenandoah." I wish Roy and Ron were still around to sing them.

[Father Bill]

Och! Not to destroy life much further, but it's been my observation that the inhabitants of a lot of places don't know the history of their own place either! What a shame; how unfortunate!

[ThistleDown]

The originator of this thread last visited XMarks early in December; either he had his question answered or he became lost in the myriad side-paths we have taken. Certainly we are now re-beating the old nag already killed several times along the way. Couldn't we just let the poor thing rot away? Or open a new thread with a young colt fresh for the thrashing?

[Mainer In Exile]

I have no doubt his question has been answered. But the further contributions to the thread continue to be instructive for some of the rest of us.

[Nathan]

Indeed and I don't believe that anyone is disputing your claim to be a Canadian with Scottish ancestry. If we are to be fair, where, exactly, do you draw this line beyond which the "bona fide Gaeltachd" does not exist?

With all due respect...Actually the "bona fide Gaeltachd" i was talking about was the one I grew up in on Cape Breton Island. As in people speak Gaidhlig there...now. True all of Scotland spoke Gaelic briefly but that was well before the development of the Kilt. Before we get into the line by line semantics, I want to reiterate my point which is that the Kilt is a mode of dress whose origins come from the Highlands and Islands of Gaelic Scotland and that someone whose origins are from the trouser wearing lowlands of Scotland is being a wee bit rich when he tells me that I'm out of line wearing the kilt. That is all. If he's cool with me, I'm cool with him.

And to return to those empty, misty glens which you depict so wistfully, denuded of your ancestors. Most travelled south to Glasgow from where some took ship to the then colonies as you describe. They were not just piled onto ships, however, but had to have the wherewithal to pay the fare and, because many did not they were obliged to stay in that "Doric??" speaking abomination (Glasgow) where they found work and remained and where their descendants still live to this day.

True. They live in Glasgow and in London, and in Sydney Australia and...and...and...

Admittedly, you've had a lot of fun with my example of a Doric speaking Glaswegian. Way to miss the point. I know that Doric isn't the predominant dialect of Scots spoken in Glasgow. But as I believe someone pointed out lots of people from all over Scotland including Aberdeen moved to Glasgow. And regardless, my point is there are many Scots in Scotland who are very much Scots but who had very little attachment to Gaelic culture and dress prior to King George IV and there are very many Scots in Scotland who don't know or care to know much about their own history and culture let alone knowing what happened to those Highland upstarts who left hundreds of years ago. I'm just popping up on the internet to let you cousins know we exist.

And while I'm on the subject, there was no implication of abomination in my comments. Lowland Scots whether they called the language they spoke English, Scots, Lallans, Inglis, Doric etc... have contributed a great deal to Scotland and the world including a multitude of inventions, Rabbie Burns' poetry, the economic theories that drove the industrial revolution and market capitalism, and a whole lot more... but what they didn't invent was...the kilt. That came from Gaelic Scotland and don't believe that fairy tail about the English factory owner cutting the Great Kilt in half.

So perhaps you might appreciate that the home of the kilt is not just so nicely defined as you seem to think and does not simply belong to a few distant misty glens far to the north of Scotland.

True, there are exceptions to the general understanding of the dividing lines between Gaelic and Scots speaking Scotland depending on the year... but that's kind of my point. Cultural/linguistic lines aren't so perfectly tidy. Some of them even stretch across oceans.

Again I must hark back to earlier comments about "teaching your granny to suck eggs" and re-iterate that it does no-one any favours when foreigners with little more than a sketchy knowledge gleaned from whatever unreliable sources available to them presume to lecture the inhabitants of another country about matters of which they know very little in reality.

See this is the patronizing snobbery I was alluding to earlier. Most of my comments weren't about Scotland actually *gasp*, they were about my little corner of Canada where Highland and Hebridean culture has been preserved and lives and breathes to this day. I don't have to know all of the intricacies of present-day Scotland to know that. My point is that I'm not appropriating someone else's culture, I'm experiencing my own, the one I was raised in. Are you disputing that? No? Good.

At this point I really do think this thread should be consigned to the pages of history ::dead::

Way to shoot and run Phil. I'm happy to let it die, as long as you're prepared to concede it's my cultural inheritance every bit as much as it is yours.