Medieval Knight Found Under Parking Lot in Scotland

[sydnie7]

[QUOTE=artificer;1156432]

Here's a bit on the Copper Cultures of the Upper Great Lakes,
but I'm fairly certain the "old world shipping" theory was largely discredited at this point.

ith:

Oh, it's still being bandied about. Ran across it on cable TV within the last month or so, when I sampled an episode of "America Unearthed." Typical pastiche of dubious "science" and wild conjecture on all the usual suspect topics. . .

But back to the knight (and BTW love Artificer's pun a few posts back!), copper, and the covering-up of ancient stuff. One of our favorite UK sites is the Great Orme Copper Mine in northern Wales. Locals thought it was Victorian-era and were about to pave it over for parking -- do I sense a trend here? -- when it turned out to be Bronze Age. Well worth a stop if you're in the vicinity!

[TheOfficialBren]

Folk living in Upper Peninsula Michigan
were selling copper to the Egyptians long enough ago that is was found in pyramids sealed up 5,000 or so years ago.
The pyramids still stand, but nothing here to show for it.

For further perspective, I know a man, son of an Inuit shaman, psychologist, and practitioner of the ancient healing arts,
who speaks of periodically visiting with an elder in Greenland who lives in a stone house continuously occupied for
12,000 years. Haven't been yet invited to go with.

- Sounds like dubious History Channel pseudo-intellectual clap-trap right up there with Bigfoot and Nessie. No credible archaeologist would agree with this long-discredited supposition.

- As for the 12,000-year-old hut, that would be a bit of a stretch to assume that it has been continuously inhabited. Not likely but not impossible. I can't think of any other neolithic structures that are still used on a continual basis in the modern world.
We are talking about a structure that was supposed to have been built 7,000 years BREFORE the invention of the written word (which never really caught on among the Northern First Nations peoples). Sounds like a romantic notion no different than the belief in King Arthur or any other cultural myth. Every culture has them...even the Native American peoples (I say that as a man who is partly descended from First Nations peoples in additin to my British heritage).

We must always be critical of romantic notions. Yhey "feel good" but cloud our understanding.

Case-in-point (Scots, please forgive me): William Wallace...brigand or hero? Murderer or martyr? Leader or puppet? Man or myth? Myths inspire people but they can be detrimental, too.

My apologies if I stepped on any toes. I said all of that with all due courtesy intended.




DK: Australia is HUGE!!! It is one massive, gorgeous country. Parts of it remind me of the US but it certainly is its own place.

[chewse]

Whereas in Great Britain and other older civilizations there exists the possibly of uncovering ancient artifacts of historical significance with each new excavation, we in the US just hope to someday accidently put a shovel in the ground and hit the remains of the infamous union boss, Jimmy Hoffa. After all, there have been prior attempts to unearth his body underneath a homeowner’s driveway in Detroit, under the end zone at Giants Stadium, and even within the crumpled steel of a crushed car in a junk yard.

[neloon]

"pseudo-intellectual clap-trap right up there with ... Nessie."
Bren,
Surely you can't be suggesting that Nessie is just an invention of the Scottish Tourist Board to get American tourists to travel north of Edinburgh! I know there are unbelievers who talk about logs/waves/otters, but really ... we, um, ... need the money.
Agree about Wallace. Bruce may have been the better "hero".

Alan

[TheOfficialBren]

Hahaha! Spot on, Allan.



We Moderns sometimes forget that it was a totally different age during the Middle Ages. Many of today's niceties were unaffordable luxuries. Yes, there were and still are ebbs and flows in the historical current and there were portions and places during the Medieval period that saw peace and prosperity but it was still a brural period. A "good" man by medieval standards was not necessarily what we would consider 'good' by 21st century standards and conventions.

[creagdhubh]

Interesting stuff, for sure. It may help to explain to those in the New World, why we in the Old World don't think 100 years is a long time and 500 years is really not that long ago at all. And before any one takes me to task. Yes I know full well that there are artifacts, etc, in the New World that go back to distant time, but I have noted the visitors here who seem to get so excited over things here that are not even 100 years old, that some of us here, still happily use!

Great points, Jock.

[MNlad]

Myth/Fact: It's amazing how the lines blur over the centuries. And many "historians" muddy up the waters when they apply modern conventions and political correctness to bygone eras.

I recently read an account of the Vikings that portrayed them as little more than innocent northern travelers who occasionally roughed up the locals a little. Contrast that with the barbarians described by many historians of 50 years ago. The "truth," as so often happens, probably lies somewhere in between. And your perspective may be colored by which side of the North Sea your ancestors called home.

As for Nessie, Bren, next you'll be disputing the existence of the Easter Bunny.

[Singlemalt]

I like others from the new world have stood in awe staring at those magnificent buildings in the old world that have stood for centuries. The thought of hundreds of generations passing through the archways inspires the human spirit. The sad thing to me is not so much that they don't exist in the new world, but they are not being built anymore anywhere.

By the time the new world was being settled people had transitioned to a much less robust, even disposable, type of architecture. I wonder how many buildings erected in Great Britain in the last 50 years could expect to still be standing in another 1000? Too bad really in many ways technology and architecture has come a long way, but much has been lost as well.

[tripleblessed]

Copper found in the pyramids was spectrographically analyzed to see from whence it came. This process can pinpoint the mine where the ore was obtained, and the expectation was that it would have been somewhere reasonably near. It turned out to be unrefined, meaning it had been found in nugget form, and that's rare. The spectrograph revealed the UP origin. Talking to the scientists and researchers doing the work brings a very different understanding than reading an article in the newspaper or online. Much of what makes it to TV is wild speculation or the work of professional debunkers. Both sensationalizing speculators and professional debunkers have found that they can get more funding and more audience for drivel and/or misinformation than for the truth. You are welcome to any opinion you prefer; I don't get paid to twist arms. Many may recognize the name Zahi Hawass. Dr. Hawass was in charge of all access to Egyptian antiquities for years, and had a very strong belief that every good thing had it's origin in Egypt. He insisted on script control or editing authority for published material, and suppressed anything he didn't feel supported his position. This comes to me out of the mouths of researchers allowed into parts of the pyramids and temples you have never seen discussed, similar to how certain subjects are suppressed or controlled by governments globally based on "national security"reasons. Some make sense, many don't appear to do so.

Very amusing to see how different people respond to something they don't understand, don't agree with, or simply haven't been exposed to yet. Starting in 1979 I began teaching oddball, off the main road subjects to people who were
interested, many "true believers", and as many or more skeptics. I've been laughed at before on physics, physiology,
health, medicine, and metaphysics. I bide my time. 10, 15, 20 years go by, and "Wow! This just in! new research reveals...........", saying what I have already been sharing. Science is not nearly as objective as is commonly believed,
and that belief allows the manipulation of the public opinion. Many of my most outrageous statements have come out
of private conversations with researchers, spiritual teachers, astronauts, etc. who will say things in private they aren't allowed to say in the media, and won't even say in private to most people.

My teaching partner had done world-class cutting edge brain research at Rutgers in pursuit of his doctorate, very bright man. Good friend, good partner, good man. His hobby at Rutgers was exposing pseudo intellectuals and know-it-alls.
Not long before he died, he revealed to me that many of our conversations had revolved around his attempts to catch me out on something and prove me wrong. Never happened. Not that I think I know everything - I'm careful how I say things. If it's open to debate, I'll say so. If it's something I read or one of my teachers said, I'll say that. If I make a flat statement, odds are very high it's correct. Not that I've never been wrong, but it is rare on substantive matters. Song lyrics when I'm on stage, or who was Secretary of Defense when, all bets are off.

[TheOfficialBren]

Zahi Hawass is pretty much regarded as a bit of a knob among real intellectuals. I agree with everything that you have said regarding him. His slant is very much propagandist hooey...and a huge pinch of nonsense oft-times.

With regard to the copper, my point is that direct trade between the Qmericas and ancient Egypt is not plausable. Period. End of story. If so then how is the multi-millenial gap in contact between the Americas and the Old World explained?

Civilisations rise and fall but trade continues. Contact continues. Isolation, once ceased, seldom truly revives at all.