Wearing another clans Tartan?

[Downunder Kilt]

A question for Downunder Kilt.

Do you know if the Australian Cultural Attache, Les Patterson has a kilt made in this tartan?

Jock, if Sir Les is anything like his good friend Dame Edna, then he would not only have a Patterson tartan or two, he would also have conned Her Majesty in giving permission for him to wear the Balmoral tartan.. I think he would do an outstanding job in outfitting himself and wearing it with all decorum due, say at a night where he was attending a function as Minister of the Yartz


He would probably be ostentacious enough to wear his CBE too.

[RockyR]

Well I am stunned Rocky, having a quick google I think I found it on a site that calls it Patterson Blue, available from Bately in 13oz. Would that concurr with your knowledge. It appears to be the same tartan as the second one I posted a link to, but in a much darker pallette
Thanks for the heads up.

No problem, DUK. You just have to know who to ask.

[kilted scholar]

There is another aspect to this question that should be borne in mind.
The ultimate authority in determining what tartan is and should be associated with a particular clan is the clan chief.
There are often a number of tartans that are named after particular clans but are not recognized by some chiefs as tartans associated with that clan.
For example, Torquil, 13th Duke of Argyll, Chief of Clan Campbell, follows the practice of his father, the 12th Duke in recognizing "plain undifferentiated Campbell" as the only tartan for the clan. While Campbell of Breadalbane, Cawdor and Loudoun are acceptable for those branches, only plain Campbell receives his approval. In his estimation, there is no such thing as Hunting Campbell, Dress Campbell and Campbell Red.
So there may be a range of instances in which a tartan may be publicly available and named after a particular clan but may not necessarily be recognized by the chief as a tartan for that clan.

[Nathan]

There is another aspect to this question that should be borne in mind.
The ultimate authority in determining what tartan is and should be associated with a particular clan is the clan chief.
There are often a number of tartans that are named after particular clans but are not recognized by some chiefs as tartans associated with that clan.
For example, Torquil, 13th Duke of Argyll, Chief of Clan Campbell, follows the practice of his father, the 12th Duke in recognizing "plain undifferentiated Campbell" as the only tartan for the clan. While Campbell of Breadalbane, Cawdor and Loudoun are acceptable for those branches, only plain Campbell receives his approval. In his estimation, there is no such thing as Hunting Campbell, Dress Campbell and Campbell Red.
So there may be a range of instances in which a tartan may be publicly available and named after a particular clan but may not necessarily be recognized by the chief as a tartan for that clan.

Just to stir the soup...

That's because they've been trying to appropriate the government tartan (42nd regiment, Black Watch) as their own family tartan for a few generations... :P

I understand that one Campbell chief even tried to pay an artist to paint over the white and yellow lines on the portrait of a former chief so as to distance themselves from any official association with the "Campbell of Argyll" tartan.

Shrewd and crafty those Campbells...

[kilted scholar]

Just to stir the soup...

That's because they've been trying to appropriate the government tartan (42nd regiment, Black Watch) as their own family tartan for a few generations... :P

The evidence suggests that in this case the government use postdated the Campbells:
see http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar...s.aspx?ref=502
and http://www.tartansauthority.com/tart.../campbell-clan

[Nathan]

The evidence suggests that in this case the government use postdated the Campbells:
see http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar...s.aspx?ref=502
and http://www.tartansauthority.com/tart.../campbell-clan

From the links you posted. (Emphasis mine)

"The tartan appointed for the Highland Companies in 1725 and later for the Black Watch in 1739 MAY in fact have been worn by the Campbells at an earlier date. There is a STRONG POSSIBILITY that many OTHERS wore the sett or something similar BEFORE the idea of distinctive clan tartans took hold."

So what we see here is diplomatic language acknowledging the controversy, nothing more. Surely there is a strong possibility that any tartan could have coincidentally been worn by "many others" before the idea of distinctive clan tartans took hold. However 1) just because it was possible, doesn't mean there is evidence to support that it occured, and 2) Even if many others wore it, given that they did so before the idea of clan tartans, it would have been a simple fashion decision or what was available from the local weaver and not a clan symbol.

In any case, the Campbells haven't been able to prove this claim but have been caught trying to fabricate evidence of the claim. Nonetheless, to your point, this is the one the Duke likes, so this is the official tartan and most people will probably just accept this very questionable claim as fact over time. Shrewd and crafty, those Campbells...

[Singlemalt]

From the links you posted. (Emphasis mine)

"The tartan appointed for the Highland Companies in 1725 and later for the Black Watch in 1739 MAY in fact have been worn by the Campbells at an earlier date. There is a STRONG POSSIBILITY that many OTHERS wore the sett or something similar BEFORE the idea of distinctive clan tartans took hold."

So what we see here is diplomatic language acknowledging the controversy, nothing more. Surely there is a strong possibility that any tartan could have coincidentally been worn by "many others" before the idea of distinctive clan tartans took hold. However 1) just because it was possible, doesn't mean there is evidence to support that it occured, and 2) Even if many others wore it, given that they did so before the idea of clan tartans, it would have been a simple fashion decision or what was available from the local weaver and not a clan symbol.

In any case, the Campbells haven't been able to prove this claim but have been caught trying to fabricate evidence of the claim. Nonetheless, to your point, this is the one the Duke likes, so this is the official tartan and most people will probably just accept this very questionable claim as fact over time. Shrewd and crafty, those Campbells...

Well here we are in 2013 and a MacDonald is questioning a Campbell's motives and integrety. I find it somewhat reassuring that some things never change.

[Nathan]

I find it interesting that the waters get murky when it comes to:

1. Pipe Bands
2. Military

When you're in a pipe band, people seem to be happy to put aside their objections to wearing another's clan tartan. I wonder why this is when some have such strong opinions of it in other circumstances. The same goes for MacKenzie, Campbell, Cameron (Erracht), Stewart Royal, etc tartans in Military settings. I'm not poking fun or making a backhanded statement... I truly wonder how this dichotomy sits with those who wear them, but wouldn't wear a MacDonald of the Isles Hunting kilt b/c it's not their clan.

With the vast amount of universal tartans out there now, most held as stock tartans at a mill, I'd think most pipe bands, especially in Scotland where wearing another's tartan isn't generally done, would be looking to change their uniform to a Universal / District tartan OR have their own tartan designed and woven. I would think this especially true of new bands just forming and looking for a tartan to wear.

Rocky, it's a fair question. I'll address it from a military perspective and I think since pipe bands are modelled after the military, that should cover it as well.

1) Wearing a clan tartan and your Chief's belted badge is a sign of loyalty to the head of your family and is a throwback to the days when you would gladly take up arms to defend his territory etc... The modern clan "uniform" was heavily influenced by persons with military service.

2) Militaries need uniforms. In the case of my regiment, we wore the clan tartan of the founding Colonel. He happened to be a MacDonald and so were many of us...In the context of a military regiment, your loyalty is first and foremost to your regimental command and not your father, grandfather or clan chief. So wearing the same tartan and a uniform cap badge means you're a family (clan) with your brothers in arms. Outside of a military context, my brothers in arms are my actual brothers and my kilted loyalty goes to the head of my family, i.e., my chief.

3) You're often honouring the history of your regiment. The Frazier Highlanders for example were originally raised on behalf of the crown by Lord Lovat. Many of the fighting men in the regiment were Fraziers, others were their neighbours or in-laws. A similar story holds true for the Cameron Highlanders. People who join the Fraziers are actually joining "the Fraziers" in a symbolic sense.

4) In the case of Regiments that use the Black Watch or Royal Stewart, your "clan chief" is clearly Her Majesty and you're wearing tartans sanctioned by her.

5) I am not a pipe band expert, but my Mom was in the MacLeod pipe band and wore Loud MacLeod of Lewis as her uniform. I believe the band was founded by a Pipe Major named MacLeod. Given the need for uniformity, perhaps there is a tradition of honouring the pipe major or band founder, thus providing historic continuity within the band. If you're taking orders from MacLeod, you can wear MacLeod I suppose.

In the absence of one of these historic and well founded exceptions, I don't like to see people wearing my tartan. I saw a man decked out in MacDonald of Clanranald at the Glengarry Highland Games a few years back. I introduced myself, eager to discuss our shared kinship and history only to find out that he wasn't a MacDonald and wasn't a Scot but there he was with my tartan on and my Chief's badge on his bonnet. He informed me that he paid for it and he'd wear what he liked and that the next day he was going to wear another clan tartan. I thought he was a wanker for impersonating a MacDonald...

[Carlo]

Nathan you leave me wondering if you'd think diffrent if someone wears your tartan but not the Chief's badge?

[Manxstralian]

In my six months or so of checking this forum, I've seen this discussed a few times, so I'll give my "newbie" impression...
"Traditionalists" will say you shouldn't, "modernists" (for want of a better word) will say you can wear what you want, and ultimately everyone will agree to disagree.

As someone with no clan associations (except MacLean, or MacLaine, through my partner of 8 years), I stick to the universal tartans, or regional ones which I have a connection to.

I considered wearing MacLean/MacLaine, but due to a gap in the genealogy my partners family are unsure of which "branch" they come from, and since both clan associations have differing views on whether they are one clan or two, it seems like too much bother. I think I'll stick to my Black Watch, and Manx tartans. Besides, I can't see the need for that many kilts anyway.