New (?) Games in Dana Point CA, Aug 24-25 2013

[sydnie7]

http://www.calcelticclassic.com/

California Celtic Classic representatives had a booth and were handing out flyers at last weekend's Costa Mesa Games. Bob and I plan to be there Sunday (prior commitment on the 24th). They have an ambitious range of activities for a "young" event and we hope it all goes well!

Will have to get a Mod to correct my title typo. . . sigh. . .

[Alan H]

This event is going to be interesting from the Athletics point of view. There's a great deal of controversy surrounding it; politics within the athletics community, centered around some actions which are seen as extremely disrespectful of Mr. David Webster. David is not an athlete, but has probably done more than anybody else to support the athletics, including writing the authoritative book on the history of the Games..

It could be that all the top athletes boycott this event. Then again, there may be such massive prizes offered that the draw of the money will win out. We'll see.

[sydnie7]

Thanks for the peek behind the scenes, Alan.

[cessna152towser]

Here's wishing success for a new games.
Alan's comments from the Athletics angle make interesting reading. Here in Scotland, up until a few years ago games were held at several venues up and down the country every Saturday and Sunday from mid-May to mid-September. The prize money on offer had to be made increasingly attractive in order to attract high calibre competitors to compete at your local games rather than go elsewhere. Games began to lose money and many games have had to fold within the past few years.

[Alan H]

I hesitate to get into a lot of detail here because I honestly do not know the specifics. I only know that I both like and respect all the parties involved, and that they're at loggerheads is a real trajedy for my sport.

Highland Athletics may be at an interesting crossroads. I emphasize the word "MAY".

Until very recently, there was an organization made up of four guys...David Webster was one of them. One of our local Nor Cal judges and officials was another. The other two are absolutely legendary throwers, one from Scotland and one from the USA. As a group, they worked hard to bring the Heavy Events to places outside Scotland, such as France, Croatia and Germany. They've been successful at doing this, though the caliber of throwing in those countries still has a way to go, to reach the caliber of performance in the USA, Canada and Scotland. The model for taking the Heavy Athletics has mostly been based off of the "Strongman" competitions which are so popular, such as "The Worlds Strongest Man".

For example, there's a tremendously popular sports and strength festival in the MidWest during the winter. It's popularly called "The Arnold", named after Arnold Schwarzenegger. This year, for the first time, this event had Highland Athletics. The prize money offered was considerable, quite a bit more than is usually offered at a more traditional event. Combining this with the increasing popularity of the Highland throwing sports in european countries, and the potential for quite a bit more money to get into the sport, we are coming up to the aforementioned crossroads.

One group would like to see the sport remain part of Scottish festivals and Games as it has been since the Victorian Era. Another group would like to see the Games expand to a worldwide sport, with a very large increase in prize monies offered for the top athletes. This will have to mean, in time, television rights. All of this is taking place within a sport which really has no universal governing body.

The "traditionalists" feel that the Games in Scotland...Callander and Braemar in particular are the REAL "World Championships". There are North American athletes and AD's who feel that some Games in the USA and Canada also qualify... Pleasanton, for example, or the Celtic Classic in Pennsylvania. The truth is that not many North American athletes travel to Scotland. Certainly some do, but not a lot and so do the Games at Braemar and Callender REALLY quality as a "World Championship" when some of the best throwers in the sport are not there? The exact same argument applies for Games in the USA and Canada. If the best Scottish throwers are not there, then is this really a "World Championships"?

David Webster is someone who lands rather more in the "traditionalists" camp, I would venture to say.

One gentleman in particular of the four I mentioned, is very active in promoting Highland Athletics outside of the usual venues. I both like and respect this man, and I know him reasonably well. The issue is that he labels some of the Games he sets up, for example in Croatia, as a "World Championships" when in fact, NONE of the top-ranked throwers are attending. The athletes are the best in their own countries, but are nowhere near the level of the top Scottish or North American throwers.

The Dana Point event is rather like this. I don't believe there's going to be much in terms of pipers, dancers, clans or much else at this event. So in fact I THINK...I could be wrong, but this is my understanding.....I THINK, It's just going to be an athletics exhibition, rather like the World Strongest Man shows. It will have minimal, if any actual Scottish heritage associated with it. The hope is that because of heavy corporate sponsorship, plus television deals, that relatively enormous prizes will be offered. The enormous prizes will attract the best athletes, and this will be a big step in the process of bringing Scottish Heavy Athletics a lot more popularity, worldwide.

This may have changed somewhat since I last heard any details. The whole thing may have garnered enough press that some pipe bands and dancers and clans may have signed on.

[Alan H]

At any rate, aspects of this, plus a bunch of stuff which I have no knowledge of, but is probably related, have contributed to a split between the four gentlemen I referred to.

In my sport, as small as it is, this is a tragedy. To have two legendary throwers at odds with David and the man who is considered to be the best qualified judge in North America really....well, be blunt, it SUCKS.

There's much discussion regarding professionalism in my sport, and much discussion about the relative lack of performance-enhancing drug testing.... much discussion about the vacuum created by not having a universally-recognized governing body....much discussion about how we don't NEED a universally-recognized governing body.

All of this is, to some degree tied up with the personalities involved int he Dana Point event.

[Downunder Kilt]

Gee, I thought Australia had a couple of world champions, 6 championships in the last 14 years (source - wiki) Seems like we don't mind having to travel to do our thing.

[Alan H]

Gee, I thought Australia had a couple of world champions, 6 championships in the last 14 years (source - wiki) Seems like we don't mind having to travel to do our thing.

Well, that's the problem, Downunder Kilt. Aaron Neighbor, who is from Melbourne won the "World Championships" at Inverness in 2009. However, there was another "World Championship" that year in the USA and Sean Betz won it. So, who is the real "World Champion" for 2009?

There are people who are using the term "World Championship" and "National Championship" pretty loosely these days, primarily as a marketing tool. Here are examples.

I just threw at the Costa Mesa Highand Games. The organization that puts this on bills it as their "National Championship". However, the Games in Enumclaw bills their event as the North American Championship. For literally decades, before the beginnings of professionalism got into the sport in North America, the Pleasanton Highland Games were considered the de facto North American Championships.

Well which one is the REAL National Championships? There are two Games which claim the title of the Canadian National Championships. so, which one is the real Championships? There are two Games which claim the title of the "Lightweight Highland Athletes World Championships".

"World Championship"... the Dana Point event is touting itself as the "World Championship". Yet the very same guy who is promoting this, had another "World Championship" this year in Croatia. Not ONE thrower who was at the Croatian event will also be at Dana Point. In fact, only ONE Scottish thrower is supposed to be at Dana Point, though he tied this year for the Scottish Highland Games Championships, so he has a legitimate claim to represent his country. One Polish guy will be there, one Aussie, one Canadian and the rest are from the USA. So which one is the real "World Championship"? TRUTH, not a single competitor at the event in Croatia could hold a candle to any of the lads who will be at Dana Point.

This is the problem that the sport finds itself in, right now, and because of some personality issues, the Dana Point event is becoming a bit of a flash-point for the problem.

It seems like a number of the "Pro's" will show up, simply because of the money. The money is the trump card. While that bothers me, they ARE "Pro's, and pretty much none of them will mince words about it. No money? They don't show up.

...and that means that the TRADITIONS lie in the hands of the non-pro's, which I find to be very sad, but so be it.

[cessna152towser]

Sydnie's thread has gone away off topic but there are some interesting points being made here.
I've seen Aaron Neighbour in action here in Scotland and also in the USA. He is based in Australia so he obviously has a big travel budget.
I was secretary and treasurer of my local games which sadly ceased after the 2011 event as we ran out of people who were willing to sponsor (ie subsidise) the games year after year.
Paying public who attended on the day were only a few hundred and we tried to attract Heavy Athletics competitors by guaranteeing a minimum prize of £50. Our budget meant limiting the number of entrants to 6. So the winner would receive £175, 2nd would receive £150, 3rd would receive £125, 4th would receive £100, 5th would receive £75 and lowest scorer would receive £50. One year our six Scottish based athletes were about to begin when a USA based heavies competitor announced his presence and that he would like to take part. After discussion with the committee and the referee we agreed we didn't want to turn him away, yet the other athletes wouldn't be happy if the extra competitor meant someone going home with no prize money. So we agreed to up the prize money by £200, so that 1st would receive £200 while the athlete with the lowest overall score would still get his £50.

[Alan H]

Alex, the numbers you put up here are interesting. Let me acquaint you with what "Pro" Heavies make in the USA. About a year ago I contacted Matt Vincent to ask about having him come to my event at Ardenwood. This was when he was certainly starting to get a lot of attention as an up-and-coming Pro, but before he won any really big championships. This is what he told me.

I was to cover round-trip airfare from Louisiana to California... that's about $600
I was to provide a hotel room for at least two nights.... that's about $250
a meal allowance of $60 per day - three days...
There would be an appearance fee of $1,000

and he wanted to know about prize money for breaking the field records and so on... as in, if there wasn't more money available, he would probably look for another event that weekend. In other words, I couldn't have Matt Vincent show up on my field for less than about $2,000 at the absolute minimum.

I could probably get Rusty Price, one of the Pro's who live here in California, to show up for $500 because he's not been working as hard as he has been in the past, so he's not in as high demand as he was two years ago. Also, he's close enough that he could come in, throw and then get back home and spend the night in his own bed.

If I were to try to get John Odden or Jon O'Neil...two very good throwers on the West Coast who are "second tier" Pro's, it would cost me airfare from Seattle for Odden and Los Angeles for O'Neil plus a hotel room for two nights, plus the meal allowance and probably a $250 appearrance fee. That's at least $800 for each guy.

I can't afford this stuff. There's just no way, whatsoever and so I don't even try. My Heavies are all local amateurs, and nobody makes a dollar at it. We throw because we love to throw. However, with the changing attitudes in SOME...not all, but SOME of the Pro Heavies, my Games would be considered a stupid little "backyard" event, because to these guys, the things that COUNT are the high-paying events where they make, say $3-4K over a weekend.

Now, I actually understand this. Why should my friend Mike Pockoski pay his own airfare and his own hotel and his own meals to come out to California, from New England to throw? It will cost him $1500 to do it and he'll have to spend the weekend away from his family. On the other hand, once or twice a season I fly to some out-of-state location to throw, simply because I love to do it.

Where's the answer? I'm not sure, but disrespecting a small event is NOT the way to do it, and that's what I'm hearing from a few guys in the sport.