Quote Originally Posted by Father Bill View Post
One of the problems we are having here is that the understanding of certain words has slid well off their definitions, words such as "formal" "dress" "tradition" even "normal" have suffered here and elsewhere.

This is the usual impact of post-modernism, a current time in which everyone believes that their opinion is equally valuable to everyone else's. Well, sorry folks; that's posh, tosh, and nonsense! There are experts in almost any field, and they are increasingly discounted as in, "It's just your opinion." Well, personally, I think that's pretty silly.

To use myself as an example, I am knowledgeable about children's learning and how to lead a school (Specialist's qualifications in counselling and special education, Principal's qualifications, a Master's degree in educational administration & leadership, and 32 years in the school system.) I am also knowledgeable about theology (a Master's degree in theology and five years in ordained clergy and a lifetime of personal research.) Nonetheless, I do not consider myself truly an "expert" in either ...but knowledgeable enough to offer an opinion that might be valuable to somebody and old enough that I can usually offer it without offending everyone in the room - just a few.

What I see, hear, and read here and elsewhere (mostly elsewhere!) are people who mis-define or re-define the terminology being used, and insist that their experience from just being casually alive gives them equal reason to be considered correct as anyone else. Thus our terminology (which is based on words) has become largely useless because people have inserted their own experience into the meaning of the words.

To bring that into the current XMarks discussion, we have words like "tradition" which once were useful, but which are then subsumed into "well, where I live, we usually...." Well, nuts! It's in response to that sort of silliness, that folks on XMarks have come to respect our highland members. A long life of observation certainly contributes to their expertise, and it includes a memory of "how things were when [they] were kid[s]. Historical research and experience also add much and professional experience and accomplishments are often useable too, but no, everybody's opinion is not equal. My opinion about kilts and related matter has certainly improved since joining XMarks, but I'm not any kind of expert in this context yet. Outside of XMarks, I'm pleasantly surprised to discover that, thanks to what I've learned here and in my studies, actually I'm now far more expert than many around me. We have to pick our battles!

So to bring this to the current discussion... when we talk about "Traditional" what does it mean... traditionally? "Custom handed down from ancestors to posterity" (Oxford) I guess that means to me (and that's an area of expertise - I am a linguist!) that comments about "traditional dress" having changed are extremely questionable. Is what was done 50 years ago "out of date?" Possibly... but it is likely traditional.

Now, all of this is from me - crabbit and curmudgeon... and traditionalist. Whatever that used to mean.

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion!

An expert is, afterall, someone with a well formed opinion. Using my own area of expertise, if someone were to tell me that The Spartan position was greatly weakened by the seige of Sphacteria, and that my arguments to contrary were simply ' my opinion' my reaction would be to ask for a well formed counter argument from my interlocutor. If the argument were convincing I would consider changing my stance. Although we might consider ourselves experts in our respective disciplines, we must be open to new information and shifts in attitude towards our opinions (or supposed facts). Keep in mind that an expert in biology 150 years ago would be considered a bit of a quack and a nutter by today's standards.

That being said, there is nothing that annoys me more than anecdotal evidence, as you have exampled, "well where I live, we usually.." This was part of my argument several posts back about determining what the criteria, or a standard, should be for demarcating 'traditional' and 'historical'. One must not be too specific in their definition because the definition will fall prey to a wide variety of counter examples. A good definition for a broad term such as 'traditional' is one that discards minor variations and includes more general terms.

or...

As Steve laid out in his previous post, a good proscriptive definition which fits the particular use for the greatest number of people concerned in a particular setting, such as a definition which appeals to the general XMarks user.
One such example of a proscriptive definition (or in this case a rule), for XMarkers is that the kilt should be worn just above the knee. Most of us on this forum would agree that that is the proper length for a kilt. However, many, if not more wearers of the kilt outside of this forum would make a case for varying lengths. So to that effect, our 'rule' is an opinion if we include ourselves with those not a part of this forum. Within the forum, we would not call this an opinion, but rather a general rule of thumb, since we all generally agree on it.

Note: I dont necessarily intend to present a counter point to your post, but rather an addition to it. Should you disagree, please let me know. And I'm sorry if I come across as pretentious, I've had a few pints and I've been told I sound thus when drinking.