Traditonal vs. Historical

[Steve Ashton]

If there is anyone who is thinking that this topic is new or that this is the first time it has been voiced here, may I ask you to take a look at one of the sticky threads to this forum section titled, "Kilt Kops". Please read the entire thread. All 23 pages of it.

You will see exactly the same points raised, exactly the same comments made. And this other thread is now three years old.

[Father Bill]

Wow! I'm beginning to regret somewhat having written what I did last evening... but I'm learning. As was correctly pointed out, tradition changes, but as was also pointed out, the difference is that tradition changes in micro-movements more than in wild swings.

More disturbing to me is the thought that there are those who have been sufficiently hurt by various comments (now I wonder if I was one who made them) that they have left the building. The one thing that disturbs me at the other end of the spectrum is the frequent comment that you can do anything that pleases you. Yes! You can! ...but it may not be viewed by others as appropriate.

Jock, I particularly enjoyed your one pithy comment. It makes me think of one I read yesterday: "I tried to catch some fog, but I mist."

Ah well. *sigh*

[Nathan]

Steve,

I understand your concerns that if the consensus of xmarks is too stodgy or set in its ways it may chase away some members but you may wish to consider that going too far in the opposite direction could alienate other members.

1) The kilt is a Highland garment and symbol. A huge number of forum members have Scottish connections and wear the kilt as a way of showing Scottish or Celtic pride.

2) This fact is reflected in the very existence of the Gaelic languages, Celtic music and History and Heritage sub-fora.

3) For many years, the kilt was the attire of soldiers, pipers and Highland aristocrats. They were the arbiters of what constituted good taste whilst kilted. There is a distinct push from many corners to make the kilt a garment for the masses of all classes. This isn't an inherently bad thing, but we can't blame the old guard for being unimpressed with some of the newfangled "innovations". We also can't blame the vanguard for trying to find a modern identity in this traditional garment.

4) As someone with strong ties to my Highland roots, but who lives far from the Highlands of Scotland, I find the expertise of the traditionalists very informative and useful. Do I follow their opinions slavishly? Certainly not but when I'm going for an iconic, traditional look, I know how to do it better because of discussions on this forum.

With this in mind, I think there needs to be at the very least a sub-forum where people can discuss how Highland attire is traditionally worn in the Highlands of Scotland by the landed gentry who kept the tradition alive outside the military and pipe bands from the Victorian period to today and no, I don't think how the tartan tat vendors on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh dress their mannequins is exactly the same as that question. It took me a while to parse these things out and read between the lines of comments like "How it's done in Scotland" and "THCD".

Perhaps you can't be all things to all people, but really, I find the Traditional sub-forum to be the one I go back to most often. I like the cut and thrust of debate. I enjoy the contrast of say Adempsey's fashion sense with that of say Jock Scot and Creagdhubh. I am probably in the middle here with CmcG going for appropriate to the circumstances rather than just traditional.

I will admit that some contributors come off as snobbish but alas, this is a forum about clothing. Find me one on the internet free of snobs and I'll be very surprised. Indeed, some folks put me off at first and insulted my diaspora identity and heritage in one particularly emotional thread but I'm a big lad and didn't run home to mommy. In return for standing my ground, I got plenty of support for my perspective in PMs and in general board comments.

If there are no right or wrong ways to wear the kilt than there is no point to having xmarks. If it's a place where people can show up in any configuration of attire purchased from the internet and mixed in any way they please just to get an obligatory pat on the back and an "atta boy", I for one won't be hanging around long. This is a kilt forum not an AA meeting.

I understand it started as a forum for making fun of silly attire worn by some attendees at Highland Games. It has now evolved into a place where if you Google just about anything about kilts, you end up here.

Upon reflection of your most recent posts, perhaps a sub forum for the old Highland chap approach exclusively would be the best way to isolate that very important discussion about how Highlanders have traditionally worn this iconic Highland garment. Either way, trying to eliminate that perspective from the forum would be an error in my opinion. It's one of the most valuable services xmarks provides. Snobs, crabbits, curmudgeons, toffs and all...

[adempsey10]

Jock, while I can understand and agree with what you say, I have to look at the forum with a bit wider perspective.

The members of X Marks were once known as "The Kilted Cognizati". This meant that if there was anything that you wanted to know about the kilt, or even if you just needed reassurance that you were not alone in this world, X Marks was where you ended up.

I am seeing a troubling trend. We are now being seen as "old stuck-in-the-muds". We talk about only on thing. We will not hear, and therefore push out, everything else.

We have heard from quite a few members, even within this thead, who say that the concept some like yourself, seem to see so clearly, is not clear or evident to them.
We seem to have fallen from our acceptance of others and new or different concepts and ideas.

It started innocently enough with topics like white hose. Well I submit that, to the world in general, white hose are what is presented as Traditional Scottish Formal Attire. Is there no wonder some are confused? But when an innocent newbie comes on and posts a picture of himself in his new Scottish made outfit that includes white hose and belt plus vest we seem to chase them off with the tone of our comments.

And heaven forbid someone should come onto X Marks with a Utilikilt worn low enough to drop the hem to mid calf.

Unless we stop insisting that some undefinable thing is the ideal or goal to be achieved, we will slowly wither and die. Unless we stop insisting that the goal is to look like some retro throwback to the 1930's, soon all that will be left here are a handful of traditionalist who all look alike.

The goal of fashion is, and always has been, to be new and different. Where do we think all those different jacket styles came from?

Even in the traditional kilmaking business the goal is to be different. To find something that is unique and makes one kilt stand out from the rest.

What actually made what we today call traditional is mass production. The Prince Charlie, Argyle and Tweed Argyle jackets are the product of standard patterns and standard fittings. I think we forget this when we hold these up as "this is our tradition and how we have always done it. "

In my early days of wearing the kilt I too used what I saw on the websites of the Scottish companies as my guide to how to dress. Now, I go out of my way to avoid wearing anything from Traditional Scottish Wear.

And as the one responsible for keeping this forum receptive to its members I have to put my foot down sometimes. If we are to survive, to continue to be timely, receptive and inviting to those who find us via a google search, we simply cannot afford to confuse everyone so much.

Very well said, Steve.

[xman]

Excellent discussion everyone. It appears there are as many ways to wear a kilt as there are to build one. If only there were a webmaster with some spare time to help start a Kilt Wiki, we'd have somewhere for new members to go to answer their questions and appropriate space for the various finer points. Then they'd enter the forums "at pace" so to speak and the level of conversation could be raised.

[creagdhubh]

Well said, Nathan!!!

Beannachd libh,

[Jock Scot]

Jock, while I can understand and agree with what you say, I have to look at the forum with a bit wider perspective.

The members of X Marks were once known as "The Kilted Cognizati". This meant that if there was anything that you wanted to know about the kilt, or even if you just needed reassurance that you were not alone in this world, X Marks was where you ended up.

I am seeing a troubling trend. We are now being seen as "old stuck-in-the-muds". We talk about only on thing. We will not hear, and therefore push out, everything else.

We have heard from quite a few members, even within this thead, who say that the concept some like yourself, seem to see so clearly, is not clear or evident to them.
We seem to have fallen from our acceptance of others and new or different concepts and ideas.

It started innocently enough with topics like white hose. Well I submit that, to the world in general, white hose are what is presented as Traditional Scottish Formal Attire. Is there no wonder some are confused? But when an innocent newbie comes on and posts a picture of himself in his new Scottish made outfit that includes white hose and belt plus vest we seem to chase them off with the tone of our comments.

And heaven forbid someone should come onto X Marks with a Utilikilt worn low enough to drop the hem to mid calf.

Unless we stop insisting that some undefinable thing is the ideal or goal to be achieved, we will slowly wither and die. Unless we stop insisting that the goal is to look like some retro throwback to the 1930's, soon all that will be left here are a handful of traditionalist who all look alike.

The goal of fashion is, and always has been, to be new and different. Where do we think all those different jacket styles came from?

Even in the traditional kilmaking business the goal is to be different. To find something that is unique and makes one kilt stand out from the rest.

What actually made what we today call traditional is mass production. The Prince Charlie, Argyle and Tweed Argyle jackets are the product of standard patterns and standard fittings. I think we forget this when we hold these up as "this is our tradition and how we have always done it. "

In my early days of wearing the kilt I too used what I saw on the websites of the Scottish companies as my guide to how to dress. Now, I go out of my way to avoid wearing anything from Traditional Scottish Wear.

And as the one responsible for keeping this forum receptive to its members I have to put my foot down sometimes. If we are to survive, to continue to be timely, receptive and inviting to those who find us via a google search, we simply cannot afford to confuse everyone so much.

I have no problem with your reply Steve and in your position and armed with the insider knowlege that I dont normally have, I can see precisely your point of view. Other than traditional kilt attire wearers in real life, in Scotland, pay scant attention to the goods that are(have) been on display in catalogs and websites and therin lies part of the problem as seen from this side of the Atlantic.

However, there is a Contempory Kilt Forum available here for those who wish to post there with Contempory kilt issues if they so wish. All it takes is someone to post there and the fact that they dont does imply that people have voted with their feet and are more interested in the traditional kilt side of things. If that is not the case and it seems that it is not, then those who want to discuss contempory kilts should be allowed to without feeling "threatened" or, the fear of ridicule and their legitimate views and legitimate choices should at the very least given the respect that we all feel we should receive. I personally would expect nothing less.

So come on the you contempory kilt wearers, lets see what you have got. Not every one likes what you like and that is for sure and vice versa of course and you have a place to post for goodness sake. So get posting!

In passing, I have said it before and I am saying it now, I too have seen an unfortunate trend growing amongst the traditionalist ranks that some of us are getting very persnickety over some aspects of kilt attire. They, a minority, are forgetting that many----most even and certainly so in Scotland--- versions of traditional kilt attire are not tailor dummy perfection in real life. Yes I and others may comment about this or that in an educational way, but there is a grudging and mean streak in some of the traditionalist comments about kilt attire, that would not have been seen when I first started at Xmarks. I for one, would like to see just a tad more leeway given and a more realistic slant on kilt attire than what we see here rather too often these days.

[creagdhubh]

In passing, I have said it before and I am saying it now, I too have seen an unfortunate trend growing amongst the traditionalist ranks that some of us are getting very persnickety over some aspects of kilt attire. They, a minority, are forgetting that many----most even and certainly so in Scotland--- versions of traditional kilt attire are not tailor dummy perfection in real life. Yes I and others may comment about this or that in an educational way, but there is a grudging and mean streak in some of the traditionalist comments about kilt attire, that would not have been seen when I first started at Xmarks. I for one, would like to see just a tad more leeway given and a more realistic slant on kilt attire than what we see here rather too often these days.

I'm all out of "Ayes," so here's a Kyleism, PLUS ONE!

[adempsey10]

I have no problem with your reply Steve and in your position and armed with the insider knowlege that I dont normally have, I can see precisely your point of view. Other than traditional kilt attire wearers in real life, in Scotland, pay scant attention to the goods that are(have) been on display in catalogs and websites and therin lies part of the problem as seen from this side of the Atlantic.

However, there is a Contempory Kilt Forum available here for those who wish to post there with Contempory kilt issues if they so wish. All it takes is someone to post there and the fact that they dont does imply that people have voted with their feet and are more interested in the traditional kilt side of things. If that is not the case and it seems that it is not, then those who want to discuss contempory kilts should be allowed to without feeling "threatened" or, the fear of ridicule and their legitimate views and legitimate choices should at the very least given the respect that we all feel we should receive. I personally would expect nothing less.

So come on the you contempory kilt wearers, lets see what you have got. Not every one likes what you like and that is for sure and vice versa of course and you have a place to post for goodness sake. So get posting!

In passing, I have said it before and I am saying it now, I too have seen an unfortunate trend growing amongst the traditionalist ranks that some of us are getting very persnickety over some aspects of kilt attire. They, a minority, are forgetting that many----most even and certainly so in Scotland--- versions of traditional kilt attire are not tailor dummy perfection in real life. Yes I and others may comment about this or that in an educational way, but there is a grudging and mean streak in some of the traditionalist comments about kilt attire, that would not have been seen when I first started at Xmarks. I for one, would like to see just a tad more leeway given and a more realistic slant on kilt attire than what we see here rather too often these days.

The contemporary kilt forum is great for people who want to discuss contemporary kilt wearing specifically. I think the problem lies when someone non-traditionalist starts a thread elsewhere (there are many forum topics that are neither traditional nor contemporary specific) and then they are bombarded by some of the traditionalists. I would hate to see a board where a part of the group cannot step outside the 'contemporary' sub forum without falling under the, at times, harsh scrutiny of a few of the traditionalists. *End of my reply to Jock*


When I posted my "Ultra Casual" thread a month or so ago, I received mostly positive feedback but there were a few comments that were borderline insulting and almost crass in nature. It would seem to that if someone makes a post that does not pique your interest in a positive way, dont bother commenting on that post. I find it incredibly rude when someone posts a picture of himself wearing his kilt and the immediate response from some folk is "Your kilt is too low, it should be above the knee," or "It looks a bit sloven, you should change your shirt" "You should be wearing brown shoes, not *insert whatever the person is wearing*. These aren't helpful or constructive suggestions. They are borderline arrogant because the commenter assumes their opinion of how a kilt should be worn is absolute truth. If a traditionalist sees a picture of a person wearing their kilt in a obviously contemporary way, applying their criticisms, which are based on the traditional view, is not really a fair assessment. 'Contemporary' doesnt follow the rules of traditional, it doesnt make any effort to remain the same. One year the trend for contemp kilt wearers might be to wear the kilt above the knee, the next year it might be to wear it slightly below. Contemporary is Fashion and trend based not tradition based.

[Hopper250]

That is a good point adempsey. We can get away with saying "that is a great casual/contemprary style" rather than "get some hose and lose the sandals, your not traditional." That way if a post is just to show off a look you don't get attacked for it. Where as if I said "How can I make this more traditional?" I would welcome far different comments.