what work needs me to do

[thescot]

I'll have to echo Tobus's response as well. If you decide to go forward with the battle, I would counsel dressing a bit better than the sneakers-and-yoga-pants-crowd, at least at first. (First impressions only happen once!) A jacket might go a long way toward soothing the concerns. And above all, I would not mention laws, rights, or litigation. You'll only inflame someone's passions over items of clothing! Don't fight a battle you can't win or that would set you up for later losses!

And now, I must allude to Sun Tsu:

"the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat"

"He who wishes to fight must first count the cost."

"To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

"He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat."

"The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory."

"Do not interfere with an army that is returning home. When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard."

Good luck. Keep us posted.

[The pink donkey]

thanks for all the input the points raised are all valid to answer a few of the why now ??? i hate pants any form of pant i hate and i find myself perching atleast 1 pair a month to replace a ruined pair. they are not for me i hate them and it all came up due to me going over the expences this year to date and with the cost to replace torn riped trousers i only wear for work i gould have perchesed 3 or 4 new kilts. and that made me mad. so i think the road i will take is to get the approval for friday-saturday.. for starts and once they see that i am not a fool trying to cause some kind of sean maybe just maybe they will see it as just another garment no big deal. if i were a femail and had my clevage out everyday and rocking a cammel tow on the constent not a word is said but a cultural family heritage garment its a huge to do. just frustrating any whoo thanks for the advice and kind words and advice i guess the juice is not worth the squeeze. if you will just a sad stat of affairs when every other cultural clothing is excepted no ??? asked however if you are a kilt wearer you have to jump threw hoops and bounds and do all this extra just to have the same right and that's wrong no-matter how you slice it its not right.

[Llama]

This is a workplace, which is not the proper venue for freedom of expression. With their dress code, they are attempting to establish a modicum of professionalism and remove wild clothing styles from the environment.

That's not true in all workplaces, or even most nowadays. It all depends on where you work.

Especially in technical jobs, where you don't interact face-to-face with clients everyday, dress codes are swaying more towards the casual and employers are starting to trust that you know to put a tie on when a client is around. I work for a stuffy civil engineering company and we've even gone to "nice-jeans" business casual. Any many corporations are striving for more internal innovation, which means that they're adopting more personal-expression friendly workplaces. YMMV - you may not work at any place like this.

Write a letter, explain your point. It probably won't hurt anything. If they say no, you go back to life as usual.

I asked my HR rep, and she said "probably not, but ask your manager" - so I posted it on an internal forum and got almost nothing but positive responses. It never hurts to ask.

[Father Bill]

The question is never "How should they react," but rather "How might they react" and how will it affect me if they do?"

If there's a risk of a problem, how important is it to you to take the risk? If you can't meet their corporate standards... you probably need a "new corporate!"

[RogerWS76]

Check out the women's dress code for clues. If they can wear a skirt then how can they tell you not to wear a kilt? Think Gender Sensitivity. You can also plead (pleat ... I liked that) your case based on Cultural sensitivity. ANY fortune 500 company has a whole training series on cultural sensitivity these days with bullets (bullet points, people) to firm up your case!

[Tobus]

That's not true in all workplaces, or even most nowadays. It all depends on where you work.

But we're not talking about all workplaces, or even most. We're talking about where HE works. Based on the information presented thus far, it seems to me that the company has had enough of this casual nonsense, since apparently the old adage of "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" is true. Many employees, according to the OP, have proven incapable of using common sense in a professional environment, and are now going to have to be told what they can and cannot wear. The rules, as he described them, do not seem tailored to free expression and individual fashion statements. They are trying to get that removed from their workplace.

If other companies allow it, fine. But this doesn't seem to be one of those places, so it isn't relevant here. And for that reason, I stand by my earlier comments. He needs to think seriously about what's more important here. If this is "just a job" to him and he doesn't mind any potential backlash from his superiors, that's one thing. But if this is a company he wants to work for long term, and possibly move up the ladder, he needs to understand their motivations with the new policy and try to support them. Not resist them. It sounds like he has a good history thus far of dressing professionally, and could perhaps be a role model for others to follow in this regard.

On a personal note, as a manager over employees in a professional environment, I see all this casual-dress nonsense as a detriment to professionalism. I understand the motives that some companies are using in trying to get their employees to feel more "at home" when they are at work, thinking it will make for a more friendly environment and produce better results. But in my observation, it has very much degraded the workplace and the professionalism of the office. When people dress like slouches, they act like slouches and work like slouches (not that this has anything to do with kilts; just a general observation in support of shoring up the dress codes). But when people dress like professionals, they tend to act and work like professionals. It's a subtle psychological thing in action.

[WillowEstate]

On a personal note, as a manager over employees in a professional environment, I see all this casual-dress nonsense as a detriment to professionalism. I understand the motives that some companies are using in trying to get their employees to feel more "at home" when they are at work, thinking it will make for a more friendly environment and produce better results. But in my observation, it has very much degraded the workplace and the professionalism of the office. When people dress like slouches, they act like slouches and work like slouches (not that this has anything to do with kilts; just a general observation in support of shoring up the dress codes). But when people dress like professionals, they tend to act and work like professionals. It's a subtle psychological thing in action.

I absolutely agree. When I first started work in the UK in the 1960s, if I had to visit London for some reason, I would sit on the tube (subway) and pretty much everyone who you might class as "professional" would be wearing a suit and tie or at least a jacket and tie and polished leather shoes. Over the years, as Tobus points out, the general standard of dress deteriorated to what can only be described as "grunge", tee shirts, jeans, shorts even and sneakers or trainers on the feet. And the general standards of societal and professional behaviour deteriorated with it. In the '90s, I used to feel extremely embarrassed when escorting customers on visits to our corporate headquarters in the USA and the CEO would turn up in mismatched trousers and jacket and tie-less, while the customers were all formally suited for the significant event it was to them.

Now, I'm not suggesting that a kilt cannot be just as formal as a quality suit, or in many cases, more so, the point is that it isn't "conventional", no matter how much we'd like it to be, except in very rare circumstances. And being unconventional in the workplace makes it distracting and may reduce productivity.

From my introduction, you can see that I did personally get permission to wear my kilt at business conferences but specifically to be easily identifiable by audience members who had follow up questions to my presentations. But that did not extend to the regular workplace and I was content with that.

I also think that Roger's comment

"Check out the women's dress code for clues. If they can wear a skirt then how can they tell you not to wear a kilt? Think Gender Sensitivity."

doesn't really apply for similar reasons, a skirt is a "conventional" item of dress for the ladies, whereas, as I suggested, a kilt for a man is not. "Gender Sensitivity" or whatever you like to call it is, to my mind, just another of those meaningless politically correct expressions that we are bombarded with these days.

You may disagree with some or all of my assertions, and that's fine and I'll defend your rights to the last to do so!

I would say to the OP, think very carefully whether this is a battle that is worth your career; you may succeed in getting permission for "dress down Fridays" but my sense is that you won't for the regular dress days and aside from bringing you to the attention of company management in a less than positive way, it may engender resentment among the current dress code violators if, as a result, they get stomped upon. You may think it unfair but unless you own the company, life's like that!

As always, your mileage may vary but do keep us posted.

[Tobus]

I also think that Roger's comment

"Check out the women's dress code for clues. If they can wear a skirt then how can they tell you not to wear a kilt? Think Gender Sensitivity."

doesn't really apply for similar reasons, a skirt is a "conventional" item of dress for the ladies, whereas, as I suggested, a kilt for a man is not. "Gender Sensitivity" or whatever you like to call it is, to my mind, just another of those meaningless politically correct expressions that we are bombarded with these days.

Another important point on that subject is that if you start invoking phrases like "gender sensitivity", thinking that it helps your case, you should know that what your manager actually takes from the conversation is that you're a lawsuit waiting to happen. Trust me, as an insider to management thinking (which is always about protecting the company from threats first and foremost), this will be the death knell of your career. Even if you're a good worker, they will not want to keep an employee who they have to worry about suing them over workplace discrimination issues. They'll find a reason to let you go quickly. Be very, very careful about using phrases like these. You may think it gives you some sort of moral victory, but it is actually the worst thing you can say to an employer.

[O'Callaghan]

I am only sure of one thing. I wouldn't want to work for Tobus!

[Pleater]

If you are in an environment where you are replacing trousers once a month because they are damaged, then I would advise that you do not wear a kilt - firstly a kilt is far more likely to be snagged if there are things to get snagged on, so you'd be likely to go through kilts even faster than the trousers, and there is the safety angle too - if a kilt gets caught up it is far more likely to unbalance you than trousers, as it pulls at waist height.

All other concerns are meaningless if by wearing a kilt you are likely to be injured.

Perhaps you can extend your kilt wearing by travelling to and from work in your kilt and changing into trousers for your working hours?

Anne the Pleater :ootd: